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Shadow
11-18-2008, 01:46 PM
I still don't know what we are going to work on next and we still have a lot to do for Kivi's Underworld, but I thought I would reveal some of my thoughts about the next game. Here's a few of the possibilities that I'm thinking about at the moment and some thoughts about each of them.

Another Kivi adventure - this isn't too likely this soon after Kivi shipped in the first place, but it is possible. This really depends on how well Kivi sells early on and possibly what happens with user mods.

A Depths of Peril expansion - I have a lot of ideas stored away for this. This would make a lot more sense now then when we started working on Kivi. I also expect this to be one of the favorite ideas just because most people that are bound to read this are here because of DoP.

A hardcore dungeon crawl - I don't necessarily mean permadeath type of hardcore or anything, just not casual like Kivi. I'm thinking something between Kivi and DoP. Complex classes, tons of items, and a random, dynamic world like DoP, but have secrets, traps, and the moddability of Kivi.

Turn based, tactical combat RPG - I personally like turn based combat and being able to plan out my attacks. These type of games are pretty rare these days, which makes me sad. That probably sounds weird considering we have done 2 action games in a row.

Multiplayer of some sort - I would still like to do some kind of multiplayer support one of these days. Both of our games would be really cool to play in multiplayer. Kivi would be a lot easier to support multiplayer in though.

I do have a bunch more game concepts that I would like to do some day, but at this point in time these are probably the most likely. I even have a cool racing game concept that would be fun to make. :)

So what are everyone's thoughts?

Jorn Ironborn
11-18-2008, 03:02 PM
My 2 cents:

A "hardcore dungeon crawl," a la Kivi w/ the full DoP character complexity, would be fantastic - just what I want.

If you could combine this with a turn based tactical RPG system (I'm thinking Fallout 1 and 2, maybe mixed w/ Fallout Tactics or the original X-COM style) it would be the best of all possible worlds for me.

Of course, I may be representative of a very small demographic of players who want turn-based hardcore tactical story-heavy RPGs (on a Mac laptop, no less!), so take my opinion for what it's worth. ;)

scragar
11-18-2008, 05:37 PM
I'm a big fan of strategy and RPGs, I'd love to see something similar to the origional X-COM game like Jorn Ironborn said, I still play the origional from time to time(on the PSx or via dosbox, my computer is way too powerfull to run it directly or via wine, scrolling is impossible :P).

The only request I have for if you are doing a strategy though, is for a few options regarding difficulty, I love fighting from an advantagious possition(maybe starting off with slightly more resources or something) against a very smart, very chalanging foe, yet that is rarely an option in most strategies(unless you cheat or hack it, neither of which are very nice), apparantly easy medium and hard cannot be made into those same options for various settings(AI, initial resources, enviromental factors?). Anyway, I don't want to dictate how you should make your game, this is just my opinion, ignore me if you like.

GeorgiaBoy
11-18-2008, 06:42 PM
<babble mode on:>

My vote (for what it is worth) is for a "hardcore dungeon crawl". My perception is that most people were attracted to DoP as a better Diablo II alternative and later came to love the depth that DoP has. My suggestions are as follows:

1) Keep the DoP theme, but in a significantly larger world with a mixture of pre-planned and random maps. As for the map editor, a large majority of us do not use 3dmax, so making map objects isn't the easiest. I would suggest the current 2-d map with 'non-walkable' areas.

2) Toggle victory conditions so the defeat of the covenants is optional for victory in the game. As another option, have the death of monster, whatever other quest objectives to satisfy the game victory conditions.

3) DoP has a great WoW-like interface...please keep it. I am one of the few people on earth that does not play WoW since it has a monthly fee. However, I love the content. I would pay $100 for a multiplayer moddable WoW-like game (local LAN), but obviously, not as large, althought Sacred 2 is pretty big. It is amazing how much one person can do (hint, hint, Shadow), but even then, there are limits...

I could go on, and if anybody cares, this is a link to my other ramblings:

http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1009

<babble mode off>

Thanks for reading!

GB

torikamal
11-18-2008, 09:30 PM
Head and shoulders, I would be in favor of a hardcore dungeon crawl game. I am really excited for the modding possibilities that Kivi is presenting, so if that could be taken into account as well, it would be very cool.

I may be unique in my feeling that MMORPG's eventually make me lose interest because I never really feel like what I'm doing impacts the world--you do a sweet quest and kill this crazy difficult boss, and then ten minutes later he respawns for somebody else to kill. Although this is necessary in an MMO, it really kills the immersion, which is why I always tend to put a lot more time into single player games--when you kill the boss, he's dead and you have forever changed the world (until you format), but you get the idea.

1) Keep the dynamic world of DoP
2) More interaction with NPC's
3) Keep modability of Kivi
4) Complex character skill trees are cool
5) More interactive environments...

Yikes, I didn't even mean to make a post. I will follow up later.

DetlevH
11-19-2008, 02:49 PM
A hardcore dungeon crawl with a complex story from Adventure to Adventure told as we see in Age of Empires is my favourit.

I like to destroy the environment, just have a look on the Diablo 3 website, they have many cool ideas, not to mean that you should steal their ideas;)

SharpCarlos
11-19-2008, 10:21 PM
Wow, seems like everybody's already leaning the same way as me: hard core dungeon crawl.

Pretty much my ONLY complaint with DoP (and it's more a personal preference thing than a complaint) is that the time pressure created by the covenant system distracted me from the fun of exploring, or of poring over all my awesome loot. So, a PURE dungeon crawl, along with all the other elements that DoP did so well (randomization, etc.), would be a blast.

Second place: multiplayer DoP would be pretty amazing. I've got a friend I play competitive strategy games and cooperative RPGs with, and DoP would be BOTH, but in nice bite sized chunks (he and I haven't finished an RPG in years).

But a turn based tactical strategy game wouldn't exactly get a frown out of me either.

GeorgiaBoy
11-20-2008, 12:34 AM
@ Shadow--How about a poll for wanted features, etc.?

GB

Jorn Ironborn
11-20-2008, 10:07 AM
Pretty much my ONLY complaint with DoP . . . is that the time pressure . . . .

Ditto. But then, I'm not a fan of real-time strategy games - too much pressure! I prefer to take my sweet time.

Delve
11-20-2008, 10:34 AM
A Depths of Peril expansion - I have a lot of ideas stored away for this. This would make a lot more sense now then when we started working on Kivi. I also expect this to be one of the favorite ideas just because most people that are bound to read this are here because of DoP.

A hardcore dungeon crawl - I don't necessarily mean permadeath type of hardcore or anything, just not casual like Kivi. I'm thinking something between Kivi and DoP. Complex classes, tons of items, and a random, dynamic world like DoP, but have secrets, traps, and the moddability of Kivi.

Turn based, tactical combat RPG - I personally like turn based combat and being able to plan out my attacks. These type of games are pretty rare these days, which makes me sad. That probably sounds weird considering we have done 2 action games in a row.


Yes please.
I could see all three of these thoughts as a mashup. Export your DoP character into the new game, recruit some 'heroes' from the escapees that were hinted at in DoP and go on an excursion into the underworld to strike back at the dark elf deity from the same base camp (only with you in charge of the camp now of course). You'd have to fiddle with the skills to fit it into a tactical format, but if you scale the combat challenges against the character then importing shouldn't be a big problem. Expand the level cap to 200 or something to allow imported characters to grow. I think there's potential there.

Or for the sake of keeping that setting clean you could go for something tangential to DoP or a different setting entirely. Mainly I'd love to see some hardcore dungeon crawling and tactical combat. Something like a return to Wizardry 8 would really fill a hole in my life. Man do I love that game. :)

Personally I'm not terribly interested in a rehashing of DoP. It would take quite a feature overhaul to make that interesting to me. It's a great game and I love it, but that itch is still scratched at the moment. :)

GeorgiaBoy
12-05-2008, 09:59 PM
@ Shadow: Any thoughts on this?

GB

Shadow
12-06-2008, 08:38 AM
@ Shadow: Any thoughts on this?

GB

Thoughts on which part?

scragar
12-06-2008, 09:06 AM
Thoughts on which part?
I'm sure he means the poll he mentioned a few posts above that.
@ Shadow--How about a poll for wanted features, etc.?

GB
It's the only thing I can imagine would make sense.

GeorgiaBoy
12-06-2008, 09:56 AM
@ Shadow:

Scragar is correct. What do you think about having a poll? Also, what are your thoughts about the replies so far? Are the replies feasible for the next game? A hardcore crawl with the DoP interface, a bit of the Diablo II 1.10 database and WoW scope (within reason) would be great.

GB

Shadow
12-07-2008, 10:20 AM
I'm still not sure what we are going to do, but I'm leaning more towards a hardcore dungeon crawl than I was in the first place.

I'm not a huge fan of polls. I love input, but polls are too simple and out of context. It's impossible to know why people want a feature and if it's more important than the consequences of adding that feature. A poll also tends to imply a winner and a loser and people get upset when the winning idea is not used (even if it is better that way).

Now having said that, I do plan on bringing up design stuff and having all of you comment on it. Discussions are much better in my opinion since you get more of the reasoning behind things.

udm
12-08-2008, 10:37 AM
Wow. I guess I'm the only one who wants a DoP expansion lol. There seem to be quite a number of dungeon crawlers out there, and tbh I'm not terribly impressed with Kivi's (sorry guys, I know you put a lot of effort into it :)). To be frank, I really like DoP for its depth and complexity. I love Civilization and other 4X games, and I like a good dungeon crawler, so the two mashed up is an awesome formula. I'd rather see the strategy RPG - that DoP is - being expanded upon, rather than taking out the strategy element

In fact, what I'd really want to see is an expansion with many more strategy/tactical/RPG aspects, plus the inclusion of multiplayer. Give me that, and even if I have to fork out another $30 on top of the $19.90, I wouldn't mind either :D

Shadow
12-08-2008, 01:19 PM
If we make a hardcore dungeon crawl it would be closer to DoP than Kivi. It would be different than both of them, but would just be closer to DoP.

Delilah Rehm
12-08-2008, 02:01 PM
I'm still pulling for multiplayer as the next thing. I really, really want it. After that, I'm pretty open to what we do.

I'm really excited about the ideas we have for Depths of Peril 2. I don't know how we can filter these ideas into an expansion. We can, of course, but it's hard to choose which ideas should go in the expansion and which should be saved for Depths of Peril 2. Sometimes I think we should just skip the expansion and go straight to #2. But I don't really know how 'the system' works, so I'm not a go-to person for knowing which is better to do.

I like the dungeon crawl idea too. The Depth's living world in a tricky underground setting. Fun!

Sometimes I feel like we need more than the two game types we have, so to not have "all of our eggs in one basket." Not having a steady paycheck is more stressful than I ever imagined. Soldak is doing fine, but not as well as I would be comfortable with. And I know the biggest issue is product awareness, which more titles won't much change. Bah! It's too early in the week to think about this stuff. We'll do whatever game Shadow decideds.

udm
12-08-2008, 02:05 PM
If we make a hardcore dungeon crawl it would be closer to DoP than Kivi. It would be different than both of them, but would just be closer to DoP.

Cool, but what plans do you have in mind? What potential features are you conceiving in that devious little muscle machine? :P

*snip*

Nice. Expanding your market is a good thing. I feel that it's a wise choice to either work on expanding the most successful product (and by expanding, I don't mean milking a franchise like EA) or doing something totally different

As a consumer, I like games that are unique, even if they're not well polished. This is why I'm keeping an eye out on games like Hinterland this Christmas. I'm fine with expansions if they offer substantial new content, and not simply just milking a franchise. Kivi's Underworld may not be my cup of tea, but it's definitely different from many Diablo clones out there. However, what makes DoP so attractive is the complexity and uniqueness of it. DoP is the first game I've played to mash Diablo and Civ together, which is pretty cool

GeorgiaBoy
12-08-2008, 07:23 PM
Delilah Rehm said:

I'm still pulling for multiplayer as the next thing. I really, really want it. After that, I'm pretty open to what we do.



To increase sales, MP is an excellent idea. I could have sold four of my friends on this with MP.

Delilah Rehm said:


I'm really excited about the ideas we have for Depths of Peril 2. I don't know how we can filter these ideas into an expansion. We can, of course, but it's hard to choose which ideas should go in the expansion and which should be saved for Depths of Peril 2. Sometimes I think we should just skip the expansion and go straight to #2. But I don't really know how 'the system' works, so I'm not a go-to person for knowing which is better to do.



I would say go directly to DoP II. Raise the price($45-60 USD) and make it only available online to maximize profit. Keep graphics secondary and maximize gameplay and depth. My other opinions are available elsewhere on this forum.

@ Shadow: What design ideas would you like to discuss?

As for me, I would like to ask the forum if they would approve of a price increase (as stated above) for a dramatic increase in content?

GB

icekrystal10
12-14-2008, 01:44 PM
Just bought Kivi after playing the demo and my vote is for a dungeon crawler combining aspects of DOP and Kivi. Keep the same graphical style.

Many people want multiplayer but I would take a solid single player experience over a mediocre multiplayer experience any day. Servers cost money to run, which translates to a higher price for the game which would increase the expectations on the quality of the game. Another problem with multiplayer is the relatively small audience independent companies have. Unless you are playing with close friends (in which case LAN would work), don't expect to jump online and find people to play with.

If multiplayer is done, that's cool. But don't require players to play multiplayer to get the optimal gaming experience.

udm
12-15-2008, 12:04 PM
Not if it's DoP we're talking about :P

Anyhow, I still believe DoP deserves an expansion, especially after looking through Galactic Civilizations' expansions. They're not adding groundbreaking stuff, just tons more features and new races/units. The easy part seems to come from the fact that they're building on an existing game, rather than developing something from the ground up again

DoP is an addiction, but of course not perfect - which game is? That's what expansions are for, brothers! :D But seriously, there are so many more things that can be added to DoP. More diplomacy, more items, improvement to Jorvik, multiplayer, more covenants, more levels, and did I mention more diplomacy?

GeorgiaBoy
12-31-2008, 12:55 AM
@ Shadow: Any updates on this?

GB

Delilah Rehm
12-31-2008, 01:37 PM
Still thinking on it.

Shadow
12-31-2008, 02:15 PM
Right now I'm leaning towards a hardcore dungeon crawl. Although I am a little tempted to have a slight diversion by porting Kivi to the iPhone.

GeorgiaBoy
01-01-2009, 11:54 PM
A diversion (Kivi's for iPhone) is a good thing, but I would love to know what iPhone usership will be in a year, considering the economy...Maybe for Nintendo DS if practical?

GB

Shadow
01-02-2009, 04:33 PM
Ok, I've already changed my mind. :) Here's the current plan (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1269).

Silent_Tales
01-06-2009, 08:31 PM
I would like to see a NEW hack-and-slash game with the same format as DoP but with
-higher graphics (like 128mb w/ DX9.0c support)
-bigger maps (like a MMORPG king of big)
-better NPC interaction (questions, different paths, good and evil answers)
-deeper story (Like a Final Fantasy type of story with twists)

I know if you apply this ideas, the game will amass in size (250mb above)..:D