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Shadow
06-23-2009, 01:28 PM
This is mostly a post to point to all of the other dungeon crawl idea threads, but I want to reiterate that we love hearing feedback from all of you. So if you have some cool ideas (old or new) that you want to see in a dungeon crawl type game, please tell us. You can post here, on a more specific thread, email me, or even send me a tweet or post on our facebook page.

General thread (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1538)

Favorite DoP & Kivi monsters (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1542)

Interactive objects (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1545)

Monsters teamwork (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1547)

Morale system (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1557)

Stamina and durability (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1558)

World modifiers (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1561)

Objects (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1565)

Undead (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1576)

Quests (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1594) and Quest system (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1601)

Item system (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1603)

Hybrid class system (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1611)

Hybrid class system 2 (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1627)

Random dungeons (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1639)

Random dungeons 2 (http://www.soldak.com/Blogs/Steven/Din-s-Curse-random-dungeons-2.html)


Feel free to start your own new thread if you have a new topic you want to discuss.

ShaggyMoose
06-23-2009, 01:38 PM
I will re-post a few ideas from another thread just to start the ball rolling.

I know one thing I would like to see is the persistent gameworld remain, but expanded.


Instead of just having the craftsman randomly ask for materials, they should be trying to craft a specific epic weapon for example. Some kind of weapon and armour crafting/enhancement would also be great.
Competing towns in a world map, increasing the scope of the game.


Some other stuff...


Mix of random and static areas to allow more differentiation of zones and the ability to create some unique areas.
I would also like to be able to give my party more direct orders. Sometimes they do incredibly frustrating things...
Better tools for loot handling. The shared loot chest is fantastic, but now that I have four high levels characters playing through the game, the juggling of loot at the end of each world takes a long time. Its too difficult to compare and swap equipment between characters.

Shadow
06-23-2009, 03:01 PM
Instead of just having the craftsman randomly ask for materials, they should be trying to craft a specific epic weapon for example.

I actually do have an idea along these lines, but if they were making a specific item in game terms how could this impact the player?

ShaggyMoose
06-23-2009, 05:21 PM
I actually do have an idea along these lines, but if they were making a specific item in game terms how could this impact the player?
Okay, some ideas then.


They could still be asking for materials, same as before but with a specific aim in mind.
Perhaps they need assistance with a process. eg. "I need this sword heated in region x and quenched in the waters of region y".
Perhaps they need some instruction. eg. "Find this book, or talk to this grand master smith" etc.

Shadow
06-24-2009, 11:14 AM
Would "I need 4 bat wings to make a Sword of Darkness" quest be cooler than "I need 4 bat wings because my supplies are low" for you guys? Even if there is no other change to the world?

Shadow
06-24-2009, 11:51 AM
Although if I made the Sword of Darkness quest rare enough he could offer it for sale after it was completed.

SharpCarlos
06-24-2009, 12:19 PM
Although if I made the Sword of Darkness quest rare enough he could offer it for sale after it was completed.

See, THAT would be cool. Talking about a "Sword of Darkness" that doesn't exist, just to add flavor to the quest text, would frustrate me.

It would be neat to see quests interact with the world in ways like this. Like, maybe the blacksmith needs a particular ingredient or ALL swords will suddenly become unavailable in his shop. Of if I don't get certain things to the alchemist, I won't be able to buy health potions. And maybe those things are really important to me, but maybe I'm playing a priest who has healing spells and wields a staff, and I don't CARE about swords and health potions.

Other quests could have more subtle consequences, like affecting the overall prices in a shop.

Or... (and now my ideas are spinning completely out of control) there could be a whole tech-tree sort of thing going on, where completing certain quests makes certain classes of items available in the stores. Like, you've got "medium" health potions, but if you want "strong" health potions, you'd better start gathering bat wings. I don't know, that might be pushing things too far into "kingdom sim" territory (like Majesty or Hinterland).

torikamal
06-24-2009, 01:10 PM
I completely love the idea of interactions of availability of items with ingredients gathered. This must go in! In continuance of this, it would be a good segue of transitioning into crafting. Getting too deep into crafting may be beyond the scope of this game, but basic crafting could be very cool. Here's a little breakdown on how this could work and I'll only use an alchemist in this example, though it would work equally well for learning spells, summoning monsters, making weapons and armor, etc.

1) You would start the game not knowing how to make anything. You can only get drops and what is available at shops.

2) The alchemist asks you for some items so that he could make a particular potion available. Now he has them available for purchase and he'll give you a free sample for providing him with the stuff, but after that you must buy. If you bring him more ingredients for that type of potion, he'll give you a discount.

3) If it's a really simple thing (like pot of healing), if you bring him enough stuff for that particular pot, expending a skill point in this area, he'll teach you how to make this kind of potion and you can use his bench for free whenever you're in town.

4) You're still a lowly, fumble apprentice at this point, so it takes you many more ingredients to generate the potion. At this point it would probably still easier to just buy it from the alchemist. However, if you keep spending skill points for this potion, you can eventually get it down to the point that you're almost as good as the alchemist. (it doesn't make sense to every be as good, because the alchemist has devoted his life to this, but you could come relatively close).

I think this makes hunting particular creatures, or picking herbs in certain areas more interesting. It gives you more of a reason to revisit other areas as well and especially if you have little hidden secrets in these areas (maybe Kivi-style), while you're picking around and hunting stuff, you might discover a little cave with goodies in it or some cool little tombstone or something like that.

Varying alchemist price according to what is available in the area also makes a lot of sense and would give the game added depth.

Shadow
06-24-2009, 01:38 PM
It would be neat to see quests interact with the world in ways like this. Like, maybe the blacksmith needs a particular ingredient or ALL swords will suddenly become unavailable in his shop. Of if I don't get certain things to the alchemist, I won't be able to buy health potions. And maybe those things are really important to me, but maybe I'm playing a priest who has healing spells and wields a staff, and I don't CARE about swords and health potions.

Other quests could have more subtle consequences, like affecting the overall prices in a shop.

DoP's poisoned supply quests worked a bit like this by increasing the prices of food/drinks. It would be cool to extend this to other types of items.

torikamal
06-24-2009, 03:08 PM
I was trying to think of ways to relate DoP and Kivi's Underworld to the new game (other than just inhabiting the same mythos).

One way I thought might work would be to have the dungeon crawl happen after DoP and Kivi.

I'm also going to operate under the supposition that barbarians are better at above-ground fighting, while Lumen are better at underground.

Because [insert reason and villain], all the tunnels to the rest of the Underworld (where the lumens get all their supplies, etc.), have been collapsed, and in this part of the world, almost all the Barbarians have been beaten back by the [insert reason and villain] to this village. However, there are still a few remote villages scattered about that were rumoured to under heavy siege, but are still holding out.

The village we do know about also happened to be near the only Underworld exit left. So, the Barbarians and Lumen forge an alliance to beat back the enemies. The Barbarians will mainly handle the above-ground fighting to clear the way to these rumoured villages that are still alive. In turn, this will clear the way for the Lumen to find other entrance/exits to the underworld that they have been cut off from. The Barbarians need the Lumen to find new lifestones deep beneath the ground so that they can have a fighting chance against the enemy hordes.

So, they must brave this world together.

I very much love the idea of money sinks beyond expensive weapons. I was thinking that as lumen find treasure and lifestones, they can use that to build up and buy safety to the next barbarian village. So, as more treasure is found, etc, you can add bigger buildings, or add more patrols or something like that and when you get to a sufficient number, the barbarians should have enough accumulated strength now to forge on to the next village, which will also act as a staging point for the next dungeon delve.

Still just semi-formed ideas, but...it's at least one way to bridge the gap between the two games.

Shadow
06-24-2009, 04:15 PM
Still just semi-formed ideas, but...it's at least one way to bridge the gap between the two games.

Interesting ideas torikamal. I'm not sure what race you are going to play or when it's going to be yet. Right now I'm leaning towards human, but that could easily change. One of the reasons why I liked lumen for Kivi's Underworld is because they have great eyesight underground which fits well with the more casual game that Kivi is. For the dungeon crawl, I want light to matter again, so lumen are kind of out.

Shadow
06-24-2009, 04:24 PM
IIn continuance of this, it would be a good segue of transitioning into crafting. Getting too deep into crafting may be beyond the scope of this game, but basic crafting could be very cool

I really like the idea of crafting. Crafting gets into interesting problems in a singleplayer and/or small party multiplayer game though. For example, in Wow there are dozens of craft related skills, 100s or maybe even 1000s of components you can find, and a huge system and economy based around crafting. Just imagine if your player could see/find all of those components. He would be constantly tripping over junk every second. What would he pick up? Where would he store all of it? Who would he sell all of this to?

You could get around some of this if the player had to pick 1 craft skill and that's the only items they ever saw.

I'm not saying it can't be done of course. Diablo 2 had a reasonable slimmed down crafting system that worked fairly well.

torikamal
06-24-2009, 04:45 PM
I agree with the 1 craft skill idea. And, it's probably a good idea to keep the area from being too littered by only showing stuff that you need to drop. I spose it would really work the same way as quests--you get a quest from Al Chemist and he needs bat wings. Now when you kill bats, batwings drop. Now that you turned them in and fulfilled the quest, they won't drop anything but guano.

One good way I saw to solve the too much equipment around that "I don't need and takes up to much space, but I don't want to walk away from money" syndrome is how Sacred 2 handled it. If I recall they had some mystical reason, but basically once you completed some quest or something, now if you have equipment you want to sell and your inventory is full and you're out in the wilderness, if you hit <ctrl> + right click or something like that, the equipment would be magically sold, though for less than if you had actually brought it to town and sold it.

palenoue
06-24-2009, 06:40 PM
I have to ask, why fantasy? Why do so many games get stuck in traditional fantasy when there's so many other fun options around? Don't get me wrong, I like your games and play WoW more than I should, but I'm getting rather tired of magic elves all the time. Why not a super hero dungeon crawl? You could play a mild-mannered reporter who was bitten by a radioactive basketball player and have to fight your way through an evil villain's underground lair to stop his mad scheme for world domination. You'd still find things to use or sell, like a vial of Mutagen X - Chipotle Flavored, gives +10% to mutant powers for 10 minutes. Instead of orcs and goblins with fireball wands and magic swords, you'd encounter henchmen and minions with flame throwers and tasers.

Or how about steampunk? You play a plucky adventurer trying to stop a victorian mad scientist from destroying London with reanimated hanged criminals and walking steam tanks. You could find gears and mechanisms that you use to make nifty gizmos, or tinctures for medicinal quackery (for extra vim & vigor in distressing situations, try Dr. Bartholomew's patented Zoligalt Pills). If you play a mad scientist you could collect body parts for your own monster to send into the underground lair. You could fight against Dorian Gray (he keeps coming back until you find and destroy his picture), struggle against the invisible man, make friends/enemies with Dr. Jeckle/Mr. Hyde, commandeer a martian tripod and stop Nemo from driving his sub up the Themes.

Or why not just make up something new and zany? An evil suburb is trying to do a hostile takeover of your neighborhood and it's up to you to destroy the various factions before they can take over/control/blackmail/extort the city council. You have to infiltrate and destabilize the fascist neighborhood watch, who has a suspiciously large amount of military weaponry. Find out what the sinister Women's Auxilery is doing with the disturbing things they collect in their plastic containers (can you survive the horror of the SupperWare® Party?). Try to uncover the secret of the boy/girl scouts, then get away with your life (better buy the cookies). Attend one of the Homeowners Association BBQ and demon summoning get-togethers (bring lots of potato salad) but beware of the possessed lawn ornaments that attack when you step on the grass. Think Addams Family meets Twin Peaks with a lot of Twilight Zone thrown in for fun.

All I'm saying is why stick with fantasy when there's so many other fun options around?

Shadow
06-24-2009, 06:47 PM
I have to ask, why fantasy?

Mostly because I like fantasy and it tends to do better in the RPG genre. I do have some sci fi ideas I would like to work on some day though.

Kruztee
06-24-2009, 09:00 PM
Wow, this Soldak project has got me excited!

I don't really have that much in terms of specific stuff to throw into the pool of really cool ideas that have been brought up so far. But I thought that I might just share my 2 cents in any case, since no idea is a bad idea, right?

One of my favourite dungeon crawls is Thomas Biskup's ADoM. I think that the reason that it is so endearing to me is that the massive amount of race/class combinations coupled with a great skill/talent system and a lawful/chaotic scale make for a remarkably different experience for the player depending on their choices (especially in the early game - the late game in ADoM is not nearly as interesting to me since all characters tend to feel a bit samey as their skillsets/talents grow). Items in ADoM that are extremely powerful are never guaranteed to make an appearance, and the player is often forced to make decisions that lead to a playstyle that they may not be familiar or comfortable with. The scope for roleplaying and character customisation through distinct gameplay choices distinguishes the game from something like Diablo 2 for example, that was basically a clickfest from level 1 to level 100. Beating Diablo 2 is an excercise in investing a great deal of hours at the computer, whereas victory in ADoM feels more of a combination of good choices (such as in knowing where to fight and where to run), intelligent use of inventory items and skills/talents, and a just a bit of good luck along the way. In Diablo 2, you always knew that your avatar was going to save the world at some stage - ADoM leaves you often wondering where the avatar's next meal is going to come from.

Hinterland was another game that I thought was quite brilliant on a conceptual level, although for some reason just doesn't feel as good to play as I thought it might. In the early builds of the game, if your town couldn't get access to fresh water, then building an apothecary was out of the question. Unless you had access to a graveyard, Necromancers could never be utilised. It forced players to have to adapt to the situation at hand (to a certain extent) rather than rely on tried and trusted strategies in every game.

In terms of features I'd like to see in Soldak's dungeon crawl then, I guess these would be the most appealing to myself:

Lots of race and class dependent skills, set up in a way that many of them are present at the start of the game and need to be used and developed over time as opposed to a skill tree setup that promoted cookie cutter strategies


Possibities that certain strategies might not be viable in every game, due to the fact that certain skills/items/features were not guaranteed in every world/character build.


An open and multi-pathed gameworld that allowed scope for players to continue on in another direction or provide alternatives if a scenario developed that made it difficult to progress in the main dungeon/area


Winning the game NEVER being a given. If this is going to be a hardcore dungeon crawl then there must never be the premise that beating it is just a matter of time spent. By this I don't really mean giving imps 6,000,000,000 hit points and making them immune to all types of damage except holy bolts (yes, I'm looking at you, D2) but rather, the player should occasionally be made to look at the way they are approaching a particular obstacle in the game and made to reassess the way forward. (Could I use stealth here instead of brute force? Could I buy my way out of trouble here, and if so, how many ways are there for me to raise the cash? Do I need divine intervention...wait, do I even believe in god? Can I interact with this feature in more than one way? Do I need to come back to this area when I'm stronger?) Bad decisions need to be made apparent and death should be permanent (or at the very least an option for us RPG masochists out there).

SharpCarlos
06-24-2009, 09:43 PM
Winning the game NEVER being a given. If this is going to be a hardcore dungeon crawl then there must never be the premise that beating it is just a matter of time spent. By this I don't really mean giving imps 6,000,000,000 hit points and making them immune to all types of damage except holy bolts (yes, I'm looking at you, D2) but rather, the player should occasionally be made to look at the way they are approaching a particular obstacle in the game and made to reassess the way forward. (Could I use stealth here instead of brute force? Could I buy my way out of trouble here, and if so, how many ways are there for me to raise the cash? Do I need divine intervention...wait, do I even believe in god? Can I interact with this feature in more than one way? Do I need to come back to this area when I'm stronger?) Bad decisions need to be made apparent and death should be permanent (or at the very least an option for us RPG masochists out there).

I would definitely like to see perma-death be an option, but even the default mode should have the possibility of a "game over - you lose" screen (even if you can then start a new adventure with that same character). This was one of my favorite things about DoP: victory wasn't a foregone conclusion (as it is in almost all games nowadays). The possibility of actually losing made winning all the more sweet. And retaining most facets of your character's growth (levels, loot, followers, etc.) meant that even a defeat left me feeling like I'd made some sort of progress. I thought it struck the perfect balance between ultra-hardcore (you lose, start over) and easy cheesy (just reload your last save!). Seems like having character death end your adventure, but not your career, would strike the same sort of balance.

Shadow
06-25-2009, 12:05 PM
Lots of race and class dependent skills, set up in a way that many of them are present at the start of the game and need to be used and developed over time as opposed to a skill tree setup that promoted cookie cutter strategies

Lots of races is hard to do in a graphical game. :( I'm leaning towards something between DoP's skills and Titan Quest's. So I think we will have tons of options.

Winning the game NEVER being a given. If this is going to be a hardcore dungeon crawl then there must never be the premise that beating it is just a matter of time spent. By this I don't really mean giving imps 6,000,000,000 hit points and making them immune to all types of damage except holy bolts (yes, I'm looking at you, D2) but rather, the player should occasionally be made to look at the way they are approaching a particular obstacle in the game and made to reassess the way forward. (Could I use stealth here instead of brute force? Could I buy my way out of trouble here, and if so, how many ways are there for me to raise the cash? Do I need divine intervention...wait, do I even believe in god? Can I interact with this feature in more than one way? Do I need to come back to this area when I'm stronger?) Bad decisions need to be made apparent and death should be permanent (or at the very least an option for us RPG masochists out there).

I would definitely like to see perma-death be an option, but even the default mode should have the possibility of a "game over - you lose" screen (even if you can then start a new adventure with that same character). This was one of my favorite things about DoP: victory wasn't a foregone conclusion (as it is in almost all games nowadays). The possibility of actually losing made winning all the more sweet. And retaining most facets of your character's growth (levels, loot, followers, etc.) meant that even a defeat left me feeling like I'd made some sort of progress. I thought it struck the perfect balance between ultra-hardcore (you lose, start over) and easy cheesy (just reload your last save!). Seems like having character death end your adventure, but not your career, would strike the same sort of balance.

I'm pretty sure there will be a hard core mode and that you will be able to lose adventures but continue with your character in a similar way to DoP.

Actually I think hardcore is going to be really cool, because of some other things that I have planned. For example, you are wandering down a little deeper than you are comfortable with and you fall down a pit trap that takes you down to the next dungeon level. Assuming you haven't been to this level before, you now have no map, no instant way back to town, and everything just got harder. Basically you will have to find the nearest stairs or gate.

torikamal
06-25-2009, 06:21 PM
I've always enjoyed the addition of mounts to games. I'm only thinking something simple here--like getting a horse or something like that to improve speed from overland A to B.

I wouldn't worry about implementing combat--just having the option to go faster is always nice. It will always be important to note, though that if you are constantly on your horse, you are probably skipping up monsters, herbs, secrets/treasures, and of course XP, so a player would have to balance all that out, but they would have the choice.

torikamal
06-26-2009, 12:47 PM
I apologize for all the posts, but when lots of people are throwing lots of awesome ideas around, it always throws me into overdrive brainstorm mode.

Shadow, from what I've heard, it sounds like this game has the possiblity of multi-player.

I'm not sure how this is going to be implemented, but I'm hoping that there can be a balance between easily jumping in with someobody and jumping out.

Maybe you can set your status to OPEN so that if someone in the server lobby saw that you were looking to coop, then either they could jump right in, or they could message you to see if they could join you.

I think this might be a good way to handle it, especially with a game starting out that doesn't yet have a huge online community, it might be easier than having to meet in the lobby first and create a game. It would really eliminate waiting and constantly checking to see if someone was on.

I don't know how this would impact quests and all that, but I think being able to have people join you on the fly would be good.

Perhaps when you are logged in to the server, your account could be linked to a twitter feed with people you have set as friends in the game and they could be insta-twittered that they are on and playing and are looking for a teammate and the person would get messaged on the cell phone or whatever, so they wouldn't even need to log in to their computer to see if anybody's on.

Actually that would work, too for anybody that was looking for a partner or two to play with, even if they aren't friends. If someone is looking for more folks and they have their "stranger open game twitter mode" set to on, they could be messaged if they wanted to jump in.

Shadow
06-26-2009, 01:32 PM
I apologize for all the posts, but when lots of people are throwing lots of awesome ideas around, it always throws me into overdrive brainstorm mode.

Shadow, from what I've heard, it sounds like this game has the possiblity of multi-player.

I'm not sure you or anyone else can really post too often if you have something relevant to say (which in your case you always have).

The multiplayer will probably work similar to Kivi where someone can start a game and other people can join them whenever they want to.

torikamal
06-28-2009, 04:40 PM
I think I posted this somewhere but I can't remember anymore. A multi-player mode that could be really fun would be one where one person controls the hero and another controls the bad guys. The bad guys wouldn't get any special augments, but the evil character can switch between enemies by pressing tab (or shift-tab for the furthest <insert better control scheme here> and whenever the enemy he is controlling dies, he gets moved over to the next closest living enemy.

This could really get fun if there are two or more people on each side.

I could see this working in a special mode or even in the regular game portion.

Shadow
06-30-2009, 04:16 PM
There is another good thread about dungeon crawl ideas over on Twenty Sided (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3751).

torikamal
07-07-2009, 12:26 AM
One idea I had for getting the player between the base and himself (if straight up warp gems or something aren't used), is that whenever the PC clears an area, some wizards could come down and bring their porta-portal with them, allowing the player access to the surface town. Perhaps as well, once an area is cleared, the player could hire some herbalists to scout for herbs in that area, or hire some folks to round up all the weapons the PC didn't pick up and sell them back to the town--cool little flavor adds.

Ravenclaw77
09-23-2009, 06:15 PM
I wish you the best of luck with Din, I look forward to the demo (I assume there will be one.) I was very impressed with DoP and I am excited to hear about the class mechanics of Din. It's no small task to offer such great variety and keep the classes relatively well balanced. As long as they are, Din stands to be an amazing game. It's a tough time to be competing in the Dungeon Crawl genre with all these new MMO's and action RPG's (Diablo 3) coming out soon, but Soldak has two great titles under their belt and exceptional value and customer service, delivering affordable games that players want to play. I'll be keeping my eye out for launch day (beta?)

Kruztee
09-23-2009, 11:24 PM
There is another good thread about dungeon crawl ideas over on Twenty Sided (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3751).

There's some pretty interesting posting going on here - I don't agree with everything, but it was quite a good read!

I heartily agree with staying clear of the "dynamic difficulty" mentality. Remember in Oblivion, where the difficulty of encounters was scaled to your character's level? Towards the late game, when all the roadside bandits wore outrageously expensive crystal armour sets? God, if they could afford armour sets like that then WHY ARE THEY ROBBING TRAVELLERS BY THE ROADSIDE!! :D How stupid. Completely wrecked the game for me, and until Oscuro's mod came out I never really enjoyed that game for that reason. Dinging meant absolutely nothing because you knew that as soon as you gained a level, the giant spiders just up the road in that cave had just instantly become more powerful too.

I'd love to see a good mix of dangerous and not so dangerous areas in the same dungeon complex in Din's Curse. I think you guys already achieved a good outcome in DoP where some areas will become freaky scary if groups of boss monsters are allowed free reign for a long enough period. Crap, I remember that Somber Forest in one game with about 9 or so crazy bloodthirsty bosses running a plethora of poison totems... that kind of stuff is good in a RPG. You want to be scared sometimes. The decision to fight or flee can make for some great gameplay choices, especially if you know that the lure of the loot guarded by that nest of dragons is just around the next corner, but they'll probably tear you limb from limb before you can get to it. Maybe more perceptive or even psychic characters would be able to inherently know which areas of the dungeon were likely to be more dangerous. Dumb characters would have to rely on being able to rely on their speed or agility to escape a dangerous area that they just happened to stumble upon. Specifically, I'm thinking of things like vaults and so called "tension rooms" in Thomas Biskup's roguelike game: ADoM.

Anyways, congratulations on the announcement! I'm looking forward to the release of Din's Curse more so than any other game this year. Can we get some screenshots or teasers soon?

Shadow
09-24-2009, 09:38 AM
I wish you the best of luck with Din, I look forward to the demo (I assume there will be one.)

It's a tough time to be competing in the Dungeon Crawl genre with all these new MMO's and action RPG's (Diablo 3) coming out soon, but Soldak has two great titles under their belt and exceptional value and customer service, delivering affordable games that players want to play.

There will be a demo.

I'm going to be one of the many that plays Diablo 3, but I don't expect it to come out until 2011.

I heartily agree with staying clear of the "dynamic difficulty" mentality. Remember in Oblivion, where the difficulty of encounters was scaled to your character's level?

Can we get some screenshots or teasers soon?

There are some dynamic difficulty systems that I like (Left 4 Dead), but auto scaling monsters is definitely not one of them.

There will be screenshots and probably trailers eventually. I'm not sure when that will happen though.

Delilah Rehm
09-24-2009, 02:11 PM
I'd really like some art like what we have for Depths and Kivi. I especially like the Kivi art! The main page for Din's Curse (I almost typed Din's Crawl!) seems empty with art and a logo, but I guess it's too early still for something like that.

Qwerytykeys
09-24-2009, 03:03 PM
Are there going to be party members/NPC cohorts like in DOP?

Shadow
09-24-2009, 05:14 PM
Are there going to be party members/NPC cohorts like in DOP?

In general, no. You can gain party members temporarily, but it would be quest related.

DeathKnight1728
10-04-2009, 02:02 AM
I have an idea for the game, though i don't know how much it will help.

I really like the rogue sub-character classes that you included in Kivi's underworld. Especially the ninja. It would be awesome if you could somehow include those subclasses into the game. But especially the ninja. Here's why:

Ninja:
-The ninja could get the shuriken like she had in K.U. They would work as a ranged weapon and therefore they would be considered a ranged combatant and a melee combatant at the same time due to the wachizashi they use (spelled it wrong).
-The shadow walk passive skill in K.U. could be extremely useful as well providing the ninja with the ability to not get noticed as quickly therefore making her able to scout around like the rogue in DOP.
-I also thought that if you were going to make the ninja a tank both in melee combat and ranged they can get the ability to dodge certain attacks in combat like arrows and swords and stuff. That is how real life ninjas were anyway. I think that no matter what happens it would be very advantageous if you included this subclass for the sake that you are going to definitely need some ranged character classes other than mages.

Well those are my ideas, i'll think of more when i get through with the rest of kivi's underworld.

(name here)
10-04-2009, 12:02 PM
I suspect that the rogue base class has most of those skills included.

Shadow
10-04-2009, 05:12 PM
One of the rogue specialties does have the shuriken skill. I believe there is a shadow walk like skill also. Off hand I don't remember if the rogue has it or if it is a different class though. The rogue does have stealth.

DeathKnight1728
10-04-2009, 11:13 PM
Glad to hear it! I can hardly wait to play it. It looks like you guys might have learned just as much from making Kivi's Underworld as you did making Depths of Peril :)

Cadfan
10-13-2009, 01:15 AM
It might be neat to give Dodge, Evade, Parry, and Deflect some natural, innate bonus that makes them different from being missed in the usual manner. Then powers which trigger off of having recently dodged could in some way build off of that.

For example, maybe Parry gives you a 10% bonus on your next attack's damage within the next two seconds. And then powers that build off of parry are thematically related to that. Maybe Evade gives you a 10% bonus to defense versus the next incoming attack in the next two seconds. Maybe Dodge increases your speed or your attack speed for a moment. Maybe Deflect only halves incoming damage, but is in addition to regular miss chance instead of existing as a subset of regular miss chance.

I dunno, I'm just tossing out ideas here.

Shadow
10-13-2009, 11:22 AM
That could be interesting.

Maledictus
10-14-2009, 09:53 AM
There's something i haven't seen mentioned yet (or i missed it, in which case please point me in the general direction) and that would be death and saving. How's that going to be handled?
I have to say that i've always been a fan of how Diablo2 and TQ handle this: a persistent world that stays "intact" until you quit/save and restart, then monsters respawn. Only the character/quest state and the location of the last discovered "safe point" (teleport or whatever) is saved. I hate the system that Sacred (the first one) used, it allows abuse. The save system in DoP is great, that too would work fine (depending on how the world is set up).
As far as death goes, i think the DoP system is good. The soul stone, the penalty, these things are wonderful. I would like to see something that rewards players for not dying (in addition to punishing them for dying), like the survival bonus in Sacred. A good survival "record" could benefit item drops, character relations (if they exist), maybe even XP rewards.

With all the suggestions made sofar and the design specs brought forward by Shadow and the way development and feedback works with Soldak, this game is going to be absolutly magnificent. I'm looking forward to this in a big way.

Shadow
10-14-2009, 10:43 AM
I haven't completely settled on this stuff, but here's how it works right now:

If you die you get resurrected in town (assuming your not playing hardcore). You will get some XP debt, which you can reduce a lot if you pick up your soulstone that dropped at the place of your death.

Saves currently save everything and it will put you back in the spot you saved.

There are still gates on each level for fairly quick travel.

Off hand, I don't remember how Sacred worked, unless it was the game that seemed to have like 4 portals in the entire game and so every save/reload started you way, way far away from where you were.

Maledictus
10-14-2009, 11:31 AM
Ah, a bit different from DoP then, but it has DoP as it's source.

Sacred basically saves everything, including the player's position and state (the game doesn't exit after the save). Abuse is easy; just save before a big fight, screw up, and hit quick-load. On the one hand it cuts down on frustration but i don't really like it. RPGs must instill fear (wink). I'll never forget the first time i came face to face with Diablo in D2 (in single player, it's the only way i play). My heart skipped a few beats and my palms got sweaty. That's what i'm looking for.

Shadow
10-14-2009, 11:43 AM
Oh, yeah we save and exit so you can't abuse reloading previous saves (well inside the game at least).

It is still pretty similar to DoP except for the saving part. Saving the exact state actually is to instill fear. For example, if you hit a pit trap that drops you to the next level before you are ready for it there is no easy way back up. You can't just reload a save,you can't save/resume to get back to town, and you can't instant teleport back to town. You really are going to have to find the gate on that level or find the stairs up. I suppose dying would also work. :)

keith.lamothe
10-14-2009, 11:16 PM
I suppose dying would also work.Unless you're playing hardcode :D

Of course, then you wouldn't need much help instilling fear. I don't know if I could ever get enough nerve to play hardcore seriously.

Shadow
10-14-2009, 11:47 PM
Unless you're playing hardcode :D

Of course, then you wouldn't need much help instilling fear. I don't know if I could ever get enough nerve to play hardcore seriously.

This works even better during hardcore. :) Just think of playing a hardcore character and getting dropped to the next level when you can't just gate back up to the surface.

Playing a hardcore character just takes a different attitude. It's not really about beating the game. It's more a challenge to see how far you can get before you die, since it will happen eventually.

keith.lamothe
10-14-2009, 11:56 PM
This works even better during hardcore. Just think of playing a hardcore character and getting dropped to the next level when you can't just gate back up to the surface. Yes, that's what I meant: dying to escape doesn't work :)

Playing a hardcore character just takes a different attitude. It's not really about beating the game. It's more a challenge to see how far you can get before you die, since it will happen eventually.
Huh, never thought of it that way. That actually makes it sound like a lot of fun :) I've been approaching games more often lately with an attitude of thinking up different goals than winning or doing what it says, just never thought of that. Thanks :)

Delilah Rehm
10-15-2009, 09:51 AM
I like hard core because it adds another dimension to the game. Once you've played so much the excitement is waning and maxed out your favorite characters, it's great that there is still something new you can try that will give you a fresh and challenging experience.

Kruztee
10-15-2009, 08:04 PM
It's more a challenge to see how far you can get before you die, since it will happen eventually.

A bit like real life really :D

I like hard core because it adds another dimension to the game. Once you've played so much the excitement is waning and maxed out your favorite characters, it's great that there is still something new you can try that will give you a fresh and challenging experience.

Agreed. Once I competed the main storyline the first time around in DoP, I played hardcore mode almost exclusively afterwards. It's more rewarding to me as a player because that extra 1% of magic resistance, or carefully (visually) scouting ahead of my avatar for traps can literally mean the difference between life and death. Not surprisingly, I'm a much better player in hardcore mode since I often pause the game and weigh up important decisions. In normal mode, I'm certainly more careless since death has very little impact on the game, except perhaps that it slows down progression for a short while.

Qwerytykeys
10-26-2009, 09:56 PM
Is there going to be multiple hot bars? 10 spaces is usually not enough.

ShaggyMoose
10-27-2009, 12:06 AM
Depths of Peril had multiple hot bars already. I guess it will be carried on to this title as well.

Shadow
10-27-2009, 10:26 AM
Yes, it will have the 2nd row you can turn on like DoP. Actually right this second there are 23 total slots. 10 normal hotkeyed slots, 10 extra row slots, and 3 slots for right click.

Guenwhyever
10-27-2009, 01:18 PM
...3 slots for right click.

:eek::D:cool:

Roughly translated to... YESSSSSS

Kaizoku
11-12-2009, 06:43 PM
Randomly reoccurring characters.

I would like to see familiar faces in dungeons appear at random times on random levels, similar to how you might bump into another covenant's adventurer or a wandering vendor. Instead of making them completely random, I recommend creating a lovable character or creature that can be iconic to that aspect of the game. Just as Final Fantasy has Chocobo, Moogles, and Cid/Sid, I think it would be nice if Din's Curse had some seldom seen yet otherwise consistent character.

For example, "Brothbar the Brewer," a stout wanderer who is known to delve dungeons in search of rare alchemical goods that make the best alcohol in all the land. He has a unique model with a friendly face and his own distinct gesture animations. If you happen to run into such a fellow, he would be happy to trade you some magical items he found along the way (which he has no use for) in exchange for some ingredients that can be found deeper in the dungeon (which he is reluctant to explore). Returning to him with said ingredients could make an interesting fetch/carry quest that has an amicable quality to it. Everyone likes a good beer, and a trinket would make it all the better.

That was just a silly one, but I'm sure you could come up with all sorts of interesting people. Creating more lovable, despicable, or mysterious reoccurring characters is the kind of lore I think players crave.

You could also introduce wanderers that pop up randomly in towns, coming and going as they please. They could offer all kinds of interesting quests/services before they move on their way, and giving them a verbose monologue that makes them enthralling could bring excitement to players each time they run into them. Not to mention the reward!

O'Jorvic
11-21-2009, 04:08 PM
what i always found a bit wrong in most rpg games: the monsters keep coming toward the hero no matter what, they get killed, more come, none of them has the sense to run away.

as a lvl 2 monster confronted with a lvl 99 armed to the teeth hero. i would def. try and run away.

so here is a thought:
1.) heroes can chase away monsters, thus gaining xp, and perhaps some items the fleeing monster drops for more speed. "aah here he comes again!"
(i think SACRED had a feature like that)

2.) same in a fight: monsters, esp. animals should (at least sometimes) try to run away when down to 10% or so HP. they still can drop items.

3.) other monsters, humanoid, give up, drop their weapons and beg for mercy, offer money for life. etc. this might add depth to the adventure. you can spare these monsters, should they attack again, you kill them.

esp. with DoP i sometimes felt a bit sorry for all the creatures in grimalkin that kept attacking me and my companion.

Shadow
11-23-2009, 11:12 AM
Different games have tried it I believe. The problem is that too many monsters running away gets kind of frustrating if you try to chase after them.

In DoP and Din, we do lower the monsters aggression towards higher level players. So more and more they leave you alone.

O'Jorvic
11-23-2009, 06:30 PM
so, the solution might be a % chance of monsters just dropping their stuff and running away when the diff of lvl is too big?

- just a thought.

O'Jorvic
11-25-2009, 12:58 PM
how about re-naming recruits? it could be fun to be able to give new names to recruits or NPCs once they join the party.

Shadow
12-01-2009, 10:26 AM
We really don't have recruits in Din's.

O'Jorvic
12-04-2009, 06:50 AM
We really don't have recruits in Din's.


sorry: NPCs! that's what i meant of course.

zyklop
12-31-2009, 04:44 AM
Are there some veteran AD&D players in your staff? If not, try to get your fingers on some of the old boxes and modules from Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Al-Quadim (for some oriental flair) or Ravenloft (creepy). In my student time i mastered many ad&d rounds and also i´m "old and grey-bearded" now, my DM materials still have an honered place on my shelves and once in a year i grab "Queen of the Spiders", "Vecna lives" or one of the orange Handbooks and start reading a little bit. Thousands of ideas for clever dungeon areas, nasty pits and monsters or rememberable NPC will pop up in your head instantly... ;)

Shadow
12-31-2009, 06:10 PM
I played a decent amount of D&D as a DM and a player when I was younger.

zyklop
01-02-2010, 08:39 AM
Also a good source for a new rpg are the Dragon Mags. There are many usefull tables with magic items, artefacts, villains, mysteries and other "ready-to-use-stuff" including descriptions and artwork. Sometimes a single name with a short bio can generate a whole dungeon crawl adventure in your head. Especially the old numbers of the two Mags "Dungeon" and "Dragon" include excellent dungeon maps and adventures. No shame to get some inspiration from such famous sources and authors.

GeorgiaBoy
02-14-2010, 11:57 PM
Tome of Horrors (Mod S1) would be a challanging mod for Din's. I lost several characters in the pen-and-paper version!

GB

rune_74
03-11-2010, 04:01 PM
I Would like to see more unque rooms, not sure if there is more then armor room/weapon room/treasury...sanctuaries(not even sure what this was?) Anyone know?

Kruztee
03-11-2010, 05:18 PM
I think that a sanctuary is just a room that has a couple of obelisks and a lifestone or healthstone in it. It just provides a bit of a respite from things that are doing their best to kill you all the time.

Lairs and vaults would be cool. You could have a pack of one or two types of monsters guarding a named boss, who was in turn guarding a gold bonus chest or something of the like. I think it would be helpful if there was a way for the character to choose whether after a quick assessment that they would attempt to clear it, or just leave it be.

FloodSpectre
03-11-2010, 07:08 PM
I'm pretty sure Shadow said Lairs are in the game, and Vaults definitely are. I've found a ton of lesser vaults (usually four chests full of money) and I've found rooms containing a few bronze chests, though their loot wasn't as great as hoped. I think I may have found a lair once too, but this isn't announced like finding a vault. I don't think so, at any rate.

rune_74
03-11-2010, 09:23 PM
Well there are so many things you could have for rooms....like a pit that sends you down to another floor....(sorta like teleport but different in that you injure as well...) A dragons lair would be cool...A tomb....stuff like that...maybe a temple room?

Who knows.

Shadow
03-12-2010, 09:47 AM
I think I may have found a lair once too, but this isn't announced like finding a vault. I don't think so, at any rate.

Lairs are supposed to announce themselves just like other special rooms. I'll check it out to make sure though.

Inspired
03-30-2010, 03:28 PM
I've played DoP and DC now and the only real complaint I have is that the Legendary and higher items don't seem to be that much better than regular rares. For example, Bloodfury is a low level Epic item and it's not any better than something you can buy from the merchants. Besides the pretty color of the name, the items usually aren't to much better if any than regular items. When I see a unique drop, I want it to feel unique, not just a +1 to vit and + 1 to dex with subpar DPS. I can find much better items that are green. I'm level 20 on DC now and the only legendary Items I've recieved are from the reputation level up so I get excited when I see the name until I look at the item and realise that it's about the same as the weapon I've been using for the last 8 levels.. just higher dex and str requirment. SO, if you could address that. That would be awesome and much appreciated.

udm
03-30-2010, 03:38 PM
I agree, I've had some Artifact and Elite items that aren't even as good as Uncommon items. It's not really a big issue to me since I've already somewhat gotten used to it, but I think it'd be uber cool if Artifact, Elite, Set and Legendary items can be given greater abilities to distinguish them from the Rare and Uncommon items.

Inspired
03-31-2010, 12:11 AM
Oh, and if you could work on set bonuses, that would be nice as well.

covr
04-02-2010, 03:15 PM
Since Steven admitted that he is considering making an expansions to the Din's Curse I think that we might suggest some 'realistic' features we would like to see in future versions of the game. Here are my ideas:

- Quests outside towns. It may require some work, but I think it's worth. No new graphics content is needed (DoP contains everything). It will add something new to the gameplay, sometimes caves/dungeons might be outside etc.

- Expanded variety of towns - eg. first few towns should be small, than hero is moved to bigger towns, some new vendors/types of quest appear, and than last, big city (maybe even pregenerated) with lots of quests and very difficult The Last Quest :)

- Changed system of controlling minions/pets. It should be more advanced, with orders and stuff like that.

- Rebalanced loot system - less items, frequency of good items (artifacts/elite) reduced, add some jewelry and expensive stones to sell.

- One new class, new items, new quests :)

P.S. Thank you for this amazing game! I have not played a H'n'S that good since Diablo 2.

Inspired
04-03-2010, 01:23 AM
Alright, a few ideas I have.

1. Is it possible to speed up the time in opening armories and chest? If I can't attack to open something I usually just leave it alone because it takes to long to open. I understand that you don't want people to just run up to something and open it while mobs are attacking them with no penalty, but to me it just seems way to long.

2. I've mentioned this several times before, but better stats on Artifacts and Legendary items.

3. Better set bonuses. +30 cold resist isn't enough to make me even care about the set or the items in it. If you had a set where you get all the items and you gain a lesser life steal buff, now that would make me try my damndest to find ever part of it and chances are I'd be on here complaining about how I can't find one last part. Heh

4. I'm not trying to brag(to much ^_^ ) but is it possible for at level 100 to have a level where everything is like superbosses or just really buffed out. I know a lot of people are struggling as it is so I'm not saying to rebalance the leveling levels, but with my character I can one hit a lot of bosses and at most 2 hit.

5. I've mentioned it somewhere before and I really don't want you to fix it but I feel I must inform you that the escort quest is glitched and can be taken advantage of. If you accept the quest then meet the escort and agree to escort him and leave him in that level or in town by using a gate, you can go clear out the rest of the dungeon while recieving x2 experience.

6. I love levers by the way. I have an uncontrollable impulse to press everyone I see and usually I die because of cave ins, but I still love to press them. Another really cool thing you have going is watching people in town (inlcuding yourself) get struck by lightning. I think that is genius.

7. I know it's just something extra you added for eye candy most likely, but could it be possible to get a buff if the town decides to make a statue for you? Doesn't have to be anything extravagent.

8. On that same line, could it be possible to get mine statues or something (you could even buy them for gold, that would make gold worth something more besides buying pots) that you can place one in a dungeon level and for that level you get buffed. IE you place it in level 1 and gain a small regen bonus but no bonus in level 2. And after you place it, you can't pick it back up and mobs can destroy it, etc.

9. I did a quest for a random townsperson and I ended up delivering smuggled goods to someone but nothing happened because of it. I thought that was a really neat idea, but it needs to be expanded on. Even losing rep would of ended it. I was kind of disappointed that nothing happened. I was expecting divine retribution from Din or something. Ha.

10. Could you change the color of the soulstone on the big map? It's very hard to see in some dungeons because the color blends in.

11. Over all I think this is an awesome game but I am forseeing some problems end game and besides running around looking for even better gear, I just don't see a challenge at 100. And that is what makes games like FF10, Diablo2, WOW so popular. The game doesn't end when you hit your max level. It's usually just begginng for a lot of people.

Bogeyman
04-09-2010, 01:28 AM
I'd like to have in in-game character editor. I know, some people call that cheating, I call it flexibility. ;)

Jorlen
04-23-2010, 01:12 PM
I've played DoP and DC now and the only real complaint I have is that the Legendary and higher items don't seem to be that much better than regular rares. For example, Bloodfury is a low level Epic item and it's not any better than something you can buy from the merchants. Besides the pretty color of the name, the items usually aren't to much better if any than regular items. When I see a unique drop, I want it to feel unique, not just a +1 to vit and + 1 to dex with subpar DPS. I can find much better items that are green. I'm level 20 on DC now and the only legendary Items I've recieved are from the reputation level up so I get excited when I see the name until I look at the item and realise that it's about the same as the weapon I've been using for the last 8 levels.. just higher dex and str requirment. SO, if you could address that. That would be awesome and much appreciated.

I have to agree with this as well. All of the unique or better stuff I've found didn't have higher damage, and I feel as though it should, apart from having extra stats.

timbobaskins35
05-09-2010, 03:18 PM
I agree, I've had some Artifact and Elite items that aren't even as good as Uncommon items. It's not really a big issue to me since I've already somewhat gotten used to it, but I think it'd be uber cool if Artifact, Elite, Set and Legendary items can be given greater abilities to distinguish them from the Rare and Uncommon items.

I second (third?) this - there seems to be little difference between the items and their "type" (artifact, elite, legendary, set). The point being that I don't get enough of a feeling of achievement when I get these items. They are so rare that I get uber excited when I get one then almost always let down when I see the specs.

I would love some items that had life or mana steal or less attributes and a higher percentage rate on a spell skill - so only 1-2 attributes BUT add 15% chance for Shatter on strike, not just 2.5%.

Or a set like "Dante's Inferno", that gave the user level X fireball if you had the entire set equipped, even if you don't have the fire skill tree. That would make a set worth while.

On a minor note, the game doesn't seem to monetarily value those items correctly. I've gotten Legendary items that sell for less than a common item before...if it sold for 5gp not 2sp that would add to the feeling of achievement.

graffen69
05-10-2010, 02:53 AM
Inspired wrote I've played DoP and DC now and the only real complaint I have is that the Legendary and higher items don't seem to be that much better than regular rares. For example, Bloodfury is a low level Epic item and it's not any better than something you can buy from the merchants. Besides the pretty color of the name, the items usually aren't to much better if any than regular items. When I see a unique drop, I want it to feel unique, not just a +1 to vit and + 1 to dex with subpar DPS. I can find much better items that are green. I'm level 20 on DC now and the only legendary Items I've recieved are from the reputation level up so I get excited when I see the name until I look at the item and realise that it's about the same as the weapon I've been using for the last 8 levels.. just higher dex and str requirment. SO, if you could address that. That would be awesome and much appreciated.
I agree.
At 62 (and with 11 alts lvl 9-39) only found 2 or 3 decent Set Items out of 15. For their level set items seems hopelessly under par with green and yellow gear, especially resistances and the partial or full set bonuses themselves are ussally so bad aint worth keeping. Also, orange and blue items seems really weak, only got decent armor rating, 1 half good resistance and some hp or mana boost makes most of these items vendor trash. With tons of green and yellow gear that gives lots of + on either all stats or all res (xcept magic) makes them the only viable choices. Occasionally found a really good pink item.