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Shadow
08-26-2009, 05:20 PM
Pretty much all rpgs have quests, so how is our quest system in our upcoming dungeon crawl different? Well frankly in most rpgs (there are exceptions of course) quests exist in a vacuum. They will sit there forever, nothing can change them and they change nothing either. Your choices don't really matter. There are no consequences to your actions. You can't really fail. Text like "hurry", "emergency", and "or else" are just flavor text and don't mean anything. And every time through a typical rpg the quests are exactly the same as the last play through.

None of this is true for our upcoming game (Depths of Peril is similar in many ways). I'm going to show this with a bunch of examples of the typical rpg and our game. These examples will overlap a bit.

Real choices:

Bonelord has taken Airik hostage and demands a ransom to be paid. In a typical rpg, if you even have the choice of whether or not you pay, either direction is going to end up with you rescuing Airik, either because the choice is phony or you have to use save games when you fail. In our game, you really do have the choice and the choices lead to different outcomes. If you pay off the ransom, you will get Airik back, but Bonelord leaves with your money and is very likely to take another hostage now that he knows he has a sucker. If you refuse, Bonelord will attack and try to kill Airik. Airik is very mortal. If he dies, he really will be dead and you
might be without an important NPC for the rest of this adventure.

Consequences:

Two factions have been at war for a while, but now a representative of each is meeting with one another and trying to broker a truce. In a typical rpg, well neither of these things would probably be possible in the first place. In the remote case that they could, the two would sit in their location forever doing nothing until you killed them. In our game, they will only negotiate for so long. If they finish their meeting, they will declare peace with each other and possibly even declare war on the town now that they have the free time. If you can kill them both while they are still in the meeting though, their respective factions will think they have been betrayed and continue their war. And yes a war between two factions means they will fight and kill each other when they meet in the game.

Failing:

Emma was picking wild mushrooms down in an area in the dungeon that was thought to be safe, but was captured by Scree. Please go rescue her. In a typical rpg, there is no way to fail. She will patiently wait for her rescue forever if need be and she can't be killed. In our game, Emma can definitely die and will without your help. Can you save her before she is gruesomely murdered?

Hurry or else:

Storm is planning to attack the town. Hurry and kill him before the attack is launched. In a typical rpg, there is no point of hurrying, the town is going to be attacked or it's not. It just depends on how the quest was created and has nothing to do with your actions. "Hurry" is just there to make the quest feel intense. In our game, hurry really does mean hurry. In this case, if you are too slow the town will be attacked just as you were warned. If you are quick, like the quest suggests though, you really will prevent the attack.

Random:

Pheros has kidnapped Svana. In a typical rpg, if this is how the game starts, then the game will always start this way. After you have been through the storyline, you have seen everything. In our game, if you start a new town it will be a completely new town. You most likely won't start with a kidnapping quest and there probably will not be a monster named Pheros or an NPC named Svana.

Our quest system is probably different in many other ways, but these are the main aspects. I find much more meaning to quests having real choices, actual consequences, and being able to fail. It's less like watching a static movie and more like playing some old school D&D. The random part is also really cool because you can play through the game multiple times, especially with different characters, and not see the exact same linear storyline.

As usual comments are very welcome.

icekrystal10
08-26-2009, 08:11 PM
sounds awesome!

mjharper
08-27-2009, 07:11 AM
Man, I am so looking forward to this :-)

Delilah Rehm
08-27-2009, 10:00 AM
Static quests reminds me of that game you played where the forest was on fire but never burned down. It wasn't a forest fire, it was a bunch of tree lanterns! :D

I'm glad we won't have things like that in our game.

pnutz
08-28-2009, 11:28 AM
This is very cool, and it has interesting ramifications on the possible "overall quest" that you hinted on in the last thread.

With this level of consequence and randomization, it kind of creates an overall plot for you, since the "plot" could be a particularly difficult chained quest with segments in each town.

This would be an exception to the way most quests seem to be created, which is that they're isolated in a single town's generated content. Do you have any plans to have the ramifications of some of your actions transfer over to the other towns, like having (possibly dead) NPCs' siblings or friends present in the next town or leaving some chained quests open for completion in the next area (you rescue the girl but the foozle escapes, the next town has the kill the foozle quest) or is each area basically a fresh game with your same PC?

Shadow
08-28-2009, 01:31 PM
This is very cool, and it has interesting ramifications on the possible "overall quest" that you hinted on in the last thread.

With this level of consequence and randomization, it kind of creates an overall plot for you, since the "plot" could be a particularly difficult chained quest with segments in each town.

This would be an exception to the way most quests seem to be created, which is that they're isolated in a single town's generated content. Do you have any plans to have the ramifications of some of your actions transfer over to the other towns, like having (possibly dead) NPCs' siblings or friends present in the next town or leaving some chained quests open for completion in the next area (you rescue the girl but the foozle escapes, the next town has the kill the foozle quest) or is each area basically a fresh game with your same PC?

Right now nothing carries over between towns except your character. I'm thinking of some things that could carry over, but I'm not sure if we will do them or not.

Delilah Rehm
08-28-2009, 03:16 PM
The problem with carrying stuff over is that things could go very, very wrong in your game. You could lose big time! We want the player to be surprised and excited about the unexpected, which won't happen if the player feels like he/she is being "punished" in the next town/game. If we don't have worlds/towns that can go very, very wrong, it takes away from the excitement.

GeorgiaBoy
08-28-2009, 03:34 PM
Right now nothing carries over between towns except your character. I'm thinking of some things that could carry over, but I'm not sure if we will do them or not.

How about making that moddable?

GB

P.S. Two other questions:

1)I was wondering how many different monsters there will be?
2)Will the item system will resemble WoW? Example (in order of rarity from most likely to drop to least likely): Common items in grey text,Uncommon items in white text, magical items in blue text, set items in green, epic items, legendary items, relics, and finally artifacts. Can you 'force' a drop by a monster, so a monster drops a 'Shadow's Staff of Smiteing' each and every time it is defeated?

mjharper
08-28-2009, 04:13 PM
Kult: Heretic Kingdoms had a kind of reputation for your character - if you chose to do things which were mean-spirited that would make people distrust you, even in later towns. It was poorly implemented, insofar as it didn't actually change very much in the game, but I could imagine that a reputation which precedes you but can be repaired might be an interesting dynamic. For example, you pay the ransom in one town, and maybe some villain will be more inclined to try the same thing in the next town; but if this time you go in with guns blazing, you can put others off from doing the same.

I understand that things could go very wrong; but if there is some chance for the player to set things right, I for one wouldn't mind things getting a little out of hand.

pnutz
08-28-2009, 04:41 PM
The problem with carrying stuff over is that things could go very, very wrong in your game. You could lose big time! We want the player to be surprised and excited about the unexpected, which won't happen if the player feels like he/she is being "punished" in the next town/game. If we don't have worlds/towns that can go very, very wrong, it takes away from the excitement.
I see. You could offer, based on the quests of the last town, additional or fewer quests/NPCs/merchants in the next town. Your choices just change a few of your next town options, nothing game-breaking.

But ensuring that the player can always complete specific quests in a way that advances the plot, regardless of how loose and randomized they are, does sound contrary to the spirit of this game. So what is progressing you from town to town, or is that still under wraps?

SharpCarlos
08-28-2009, 04:57 PM
This all sounds so great.

I still have vague memories of the moment I realized that not only were the "hurry" quests in RPG's a lie, but the games were PUNISHING me for hurrying, because I wouldn't be levelled up enough to face the big threat.

Question: in addition to "failing" quests, will it also be possible to fail a whole adventure? Like, if I bork things up so badly that I trigger a town invasion, and I then screw up the defense of the town, could I see a "you lose" screen, and that adventure's done?

Shadow
08-28-2009, 06:18 PM
How about making that moddable?

1)I was wondering how many different monsters there will be?
2)Will the item system will resemble WoW? Example (in order of rarity from most likely to drop to least likely): Common items in grey text,Uncommon items in white text, magical items in blue text, set items in green, epic items, legendary items, relics, and finally artifacts. Can you 'force' a drop by a monster, so a monster drops a 'Shadow's Staff of Smiteing' each and every time it is defeated?

Right now it's not moddable because I have no way to save information like that.

1) Not sure on the exact count, but most of the monsters from DoP and Kivi will reappear, plus at least a few new ones.

2) The item system is similar to DoP again (which is similar to WoW and many other RPGs).

You can't force a monster to drop a specific item right now, but it wouldn't be too hard to add.

Kult: Heretic Kingdoms had a kind of reputation for your character - if you chose to do things which were mean-spirited that would make people distrust you, even in later towns. It was poorly implemented, insofar as it didn't actually change very much in the game, but I could imagine that a reputation which precedes you but can be repaired might be an interesting dynamic. For example, you pay the ransom in one town, and maybe some villain will be more inclined to try the same thing in the next town; but if this time you go in with guns blazing, you can put others off from doing the same.

We have been talking about keeping track of some reputation type stuff, but it's only talk so far. A good reputation system needs to make a noticable impact and so far I haven't thought of too much that it could change.

Although I could have quests and even new npcs unlock when you get your reputation high enough.

So what is progressing you from town to town, or is that still under wraps?

Depends on what you mean. You get to go to the next town when you solve all of the quests for the current town. If you mean what's the higher purpose of your character running around and saving all of these towns, well that's undecided so far.

Question: in addition to "failing" quests, will it also be possible to fail a whole adventure? Like, if I bork things up so badly that I trigger a town invasion, and I then screw up the defense of the town, could I see a "you lose" screen, and that adventure's done?

Yes, you will be able to fail an adventure. I'm not sure how it's going to work yet though. If you manage to wipe the entire town, I'm pretty sure you will lose. You also might fail if you manage to fail a key quest or lose too many town people.

Delilah Rehm
08-28-2009, 08:14 PM
Kult: ... reputation... (impacts) later towns...

I've been thinking about this very thing!

Delilah Rehm
08-28-2009, 08:17 PM
I'm really looking forward to having a surprising set of circumstances happen that I have to puzzle my way through, and then telling my friends about it. :)

Kruztee
08-29-2009, 12:03 AM
The more I read about this game, the more I believe that it's going to be Soldak's most impressive creation to date. I can't wait!:D

Shadow
08-31-2009, 02:40 PM
I still have vague memories of the moment I realized that not only were the "hurry" quests in RPG's a lie, but the games were PUNISHING me for hurrying, because I wouldn't be levelled up enough to face the big threat.

I didn't think of this, but it is very true.

Delilah Rehm
08-31-2009, 02:49 PM
I tend to be a slow, defensive player, so I'd level up more than I needed too before "hurrying."

Remember Haunted House on Attari? (Ummm.... I was like a BABY when I played it, I swear! ;)) I was so terrified of a ghost or monster getting me, the first thing I'd do is find the knife. Only then when I was invincible, could I look for the three vase pieces. I wouldn't pick them up until I knew where they all were.

(name here)
09-19-2009, 06:17 PM
I personally liked the DoP system quite a lot, too. My big gripe is that the quests take a long time to go totally nuts and wreck the town, somthing i'd like to get fixed via having fewer quests with such a risk and upping the per check rate of effects occuring. Especially scout in town quests.

EDIT: To clarify, what I mean is that there should be fewer time critical quests but bad results should happen more often. Maybe only meeting, uprising, and war quests should lead to invasions, and those should happen slightly less often?

GeorgiaBoy
02-05-2010, 02:05 AM
You can't force a monster to drop a specific item right now, but it wouldn't be too hard to add.

Is this doable with the beta?


We have been talking about keeping track of some reputation type stuff, but it's only talk so far. A good reputation system needs to make a noticable impact and so far I haven't thought of too much that it could change.

Although I could have quests and even new npcs unlock when you get your reputation high enough.

Reputation can lead to discounts, maybe townspeople would be more willing to fight for the PC (defend the town better, cheaper NPC hire, Din may even cut the PC a break on failing a quest...)

Maybe ala WoW different faction reputation (later game)?

GB

P.S. I have not run into 'chained' quests. Do these exist?

DarkShrike
02-05-2010, 07:34 AM
I tend to be a slow, defensive player, so I'd level up more than I needed too before "hurrying."

Remember Haunted House on Attari? (Ummm.... I was like a BABY when I played it, I swear! ;)) I was so terrified of a ghost or monster getting me, the first thing I'd do is find the knife. Only then when I was invincible, could I look for the three vase pieces. I wouldn't pick them up until I knew where they all were.

lol, wow that brings back memories. I LOVED that game :D

Shadow
02-05-2010, 09:40 AM
Is this doable with the beta?

Reputation can lead to discounts, maybe townspeople would be more willing to fight for the PC (defend the town better, cheaper NPC hire, Din may even cut the PC a break on failing a quest...)

Maybe ala WoW different faction reputation (later game)?

P.S. I have not run into 'chained' quests. Do these exist?

We don't do any of that right now. Reputation does effect some things like certain wandering vendors won't come to town until you have enough reputation.

Just about everything is a chained quest (unless you are meaning something else). Watch the quest text and you will see that quests chain from one to another fairly often.

gornova
02-05-2010, 11:01 AM
Great :D I wrote about Din's quest system on my blog (http://randomtower.blogspot.com/), my hope for this game are great!! :D

i don't have understand well if player can walk outside of towns in Din's or have "only" a dungeon under town to explore.

Shadow
02-05-2010, 11:22 AM
In this particular game everything, except the town, is all underground.

derailed
02-05-2010, 03:22 PM
do you plan on expanding it to go further on the overworld (I don't necessarily mean any time soon, maybe in an expansion or whatever)? kind of feels like there should be more landscape like in depths of peril. a little drab maybe.

also I have another question, actually related to the quest system. I feel like I'm easily overwhelmed right now with trying to do the quests I already have and reacting to the stuff going on. would it be possible to maybe make a slider or something on the world generation screen to slow down the amount of actions in the world going on at once. or maybe I should call it possible quests going at one time, something like this?

GeorgiaBoy
02-05-2010, 05:07 PM
do you plan on expanding it to go further on the overworld (I don't necessarily mean any time soon, maybe in an expansion or whatever)? kind of feels like there should be more landscape like in depths of peril. a little drab maybe.

also I have another question, actually related to the quest system. I feel like I'm easily overwhelmed right now with trying to do the quests I already have and reacting to the stuff going on. would it be possible to maybe make a slider or something on the world generation screen to slow down the amount of actions in the world going on at once. or maybe I should call it possible quests going at one time, something like this?

I do not know if this would be easy, but Shadow could just add the overland maps from DoP (but sized bigger)...Be glad to pay for an expansion in this vein...

Thanks again for this wonderful game, Delilah and Steven.

Shadow
02-05-2010, 05:49 PM
do you plan on expanding it to go further on the overworld (I don't necessarily mean any time soon, maybe in an expansion or whatever)? kind of feels like there should be more landscape like in depths of peril. a little drab maybe.

also I have another question, actually related to the quest system. I feel like I'm easily overwhelmed right now with trying to do the quests I already have and reacting to the stuff going on. would it be possible to maybe make a slider or something on the world generation screen to slow down the amount of actions in the world going on at once. or maybe I should call it possible quests going at one time, something like this?

Right now I don't have a plan to do overland, that could change though.

Tech wise I could give you a slider. I'll have to think about whether or not that would be good or bad for the game though.

GeorgiaBoy
02-05-2010, 06:57 PM
Right now I don't have a plan to do overland, that could change though.

Tech wise I could give you a slider. I'll have to think about whether or not that would be good or bad for the game though.

It just keeps getting better...a slider would be cool. Would overland be a reasonable request (I would not know)?

derailed
02-05-2010, 08:36 PM
Tech wise I could give you a slider. I'll have to think about whether or not that would be good or bad for the game though.

this doesn't actually matter to me anymore now. hehe. I've come to grips with the quest system. just needed some more time

Shadow
02-06-2010, 10:03 AM
I think for the final game it probably wouldn't be feasible. Past that I don't know.

peirceg
02-06-2010, 10:19 PM
I must admit I haven't played the Beta yet .. but first great job with DoP.

Anyways one tiny flaw is that quests and their consequences seem to be based around failure and killing things in time.

A bit of variety would be perhaps greater reward in actually succeeding. An example being you stopped an attack on a town, the town is then able to hold a festival which attracts a market etc etc. (then make a statue in your name)

Another idea would be "finding quests". Instead of killing said NPC etc, another option would be to map a certain region, find a the holy sword of the town which gives you the option to give it back or keep it, find the guardian spirit of a town-which gives the town a permanent guardian to ward off further monster incursions.

And finally, every now and again, would be no consequences whatsoever. You dont decide to help the Herbalist, but by some twist of fate they are able to escape on their own.

Lyranaar
02-07-2010, 12:18 PM
I would like to put my vote on overland areas as well. They were really nice in DoP.

So basically there could be "overland dungeons" as well or additional areas where the quests happen.
If you take the gfx of the dungeon that looks like stone walls, you could also do some "looming castle/tower/crypt behind the dark forest stuff" without actually creating much graphical assets.

I just miss to peek outside the gates. It helps identifying with a certain town better as well.

GeorgiaBoy
02-09-2010, 04:08 PM
I wonder if I could just add some of the overland maps from DoP...

GB

Del137
02-19-2010, 03:02 AM
Overland territory even maybe with small villages living their own life and own quests... their own small dungeons..mmm... :rolleyes: