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Shadow
09-03-2009, 09:30 AM
I've been putting a lot of thought into our item system for our upcoming dungeon crawl lately. For most action RPGs, the item system is very important. This is definitely true for the dungeon crawl. Our more casual hack and slash, Kivi's Underworld, has a more streamlined item system, but the dungeon crawl is going to be much more hard core, so we are going to need a cool, full item system.

We are essentially starting with the Depths of Peril item system and building from there. Depths of Peril already has a pretty extensive system with items with many different rarities: normal, common, uncommon, rare, very rare, set, unique, and artifacts. This works pretty well, but I'm adding some things that I think will make it even more interesting: elite items, legendary items, cursed items, ego weapons, set item changes, and procs.

Elite items are technically not new. I'm changing the unique items to elite items. It's really just a name change that fits a bit better. It's always been weird telling people, yes you can find multiple copies of a "unique" item.

Legendary items are a new tier of items above artifacts. Essentially, they are
the most powerful items in the game. The plan is that they will have the attributes that the same named artifact will have, plus one random attribute, adding a huge variety to the top tier of items. However, a legendary item could have something relatively worthless like extra light, be awesome with an extra 100% of damage, or even be cursed.

Ego weapons have some level of intelligence that recognizes enemies and/or friends. If you are fighting a monster the ego weapon considers an enemy, you'll get a large damage bonus (currently +200%). However if you are fighting someone it considers a friend, you'll get a large damage penalty (currently -50%). An ego weapon can have multiple enemy types and/or friend types.

Cursed items are going to make things interesting. No they are NOT like D&D cursed items that bind to you if you equip them. A cursed item has at least one negative attribute, like a strength penalty. I think the cursed items are going to be amusing in many cases and add a lot of variety. Is that cool rare sword with the curse better than your merely common magic sword?

The positive side of cursed items is that they have lower level and attribute requirements to use them. So thanks to the curse, you might be able to use an item that is well above your level. Many times a curse will be bad, but sometimes it will be a blessing in disguise. It also lowers the item price which will be good or bad depending on if you're buying or selling. Some possible pure cursed items: axe of
flabbiness (less vitality), staff of lameness (less spirit), mace of impotence (less strength), long sword of the Idiot (less intelligence), and dagger of clumsiness (less dexterity). Ego weapons with a monster friend type are also cursed items.

Set items are always tricky. If you drop too few then no one can complete any of the sets and the items just end up being poor unique items (now elite items). If you increase the drop rate, you end up with more items from different sets. We've made two changes to help complete sets - set items now have a larger level range when they are allowed to spawn, and when a set item drops there is now a chance another item from the same set will drop. For each successful extra drop, it checks again. So it's actually possible, though not likely, that the entire set will drop at once.

And finally we now have items with skill procs. For those who don't know the lingo, a proc is a spell that has a chance to be cast automatically when something happens. Currently we have -on hit- procs for weapons and -when hit- procs for armor. You can find items like a sword with a 10% chance to cast a level 5 fear each time you hit a monster, or a breastplate with a 5% chance to cast a level 10 ice storm each time you are hit. The other nice thing is that these are random attributes, so they can appear on pretty much any magical item in the game.

I'm sure I'll make more changes before we ship, but this is the state of the current item system (or in a couple cases about to be). As usual feedback is very welcome.

pnutz
09-03-2009, 11:35 AM
Very nice. It's a very complete feature set for an ARPG item system. To be honest, I was hoping for something mind-blowing after reading your quest system post, but then again, ARPG item systems (and the DoP one your are expanding this from) are already pretty well randomized.

The Ego and Cursed weapons have some great possibilities. Could ego weapons be possibly positive/neutral/negative towards the PC as well, depending on race/class? The weapon would form some opinion on you based on your quest performance and choices (not sure if there will be good/evil choices or if you're good all the way). Getting a quest from your item if it likes the way you work would be awesome.

Cursed weapons are good idea, though I hope they go beyond stat reductions. Maybe something like "forces you to keep attacking until the current target is dead", "does massive damage, but slows attack speed on every successive hit (per monster of course)", "5% chance to cause you to use a random skill", "attracts undead", "smells horrible (repulses townspeople)". You could mix these with ego, giving you weapons that refuse to be wielded by someone wearing leather armor, or those that blabber constantly, alerting monsters. A cursed/proc'd item might have a chance to heal or buff the creature you're attacking, or 2% chance to summon some low level beasties.

Another idea that I've always loved: fragmented items. They work like sets, but for a single, powerful item. The superduperflail is split into the staff, the spiked fire skull, the spiked ice skull, and the spiked acid skull. You need to find all of the pieces, bring them back to the blacksmith, pay him a boatload of money, and wait a week of game time to get your legendary weapon. This could take the form of a set of otherwise useless, inventory filling pieces, or perhaps a standard (though named and notable) item that becomes all-powerful when paired with a specific insert or accessory.

Delilah Rehm
09-03-2009, 01:45 PM
Ooooo.... Good ideas, Pnutz!

I like the idea of a babbling weapon.

"So I was sneaking up on the group of unique monsters planning to kite one away and kill it, but then my Babbling Blade starting singing! Yes singing! All of the uniques saw me and in three swipes, I was dead."

Or an aggressive, fight-loving, babbling weapon.

"I was minding my own business, skirting monster groups to escort a pathetic npc, when my Roaring Mace gets a whiff of the lurker that popped up in front of me. Roaring Mace screams its bloody head off, and now on my mini-map I see every single $*#&&%$ red dot moving my way. Needless to say, my escortee was toast and I failed the quest."

Or what about a weapon that's scared of certain monster types? What if it makes you run away from them or unequipts or freezes up or... the possibilities seem endless.

There is just so much you can do with weapons that have feelings!

scragar
09-03-2009, 02:46 PM
Or what about a weapon that's scared of certain monster types? What if it makes you run away from them or unequipts or freezes up or... the possibilities seem endless.

There is just so much you can do with weapons that have feelings!

I think the goal was for weapons to be different, weapons would be enchanted for some reason, and these enchantments would offer advantages or disadvantages, so maybe there are weapons designed not to harm humans(or humanoid creatures), or weapons that cannot kill, but are otherwise very effective at disabling an enemy(maybe slows, stops, parazises, inflicts fear, or something similar), maybe the weapon is normally quite useless, but deals so much damage to the undead it's almost instant death, or a weapon that get's more powerful as your health falls, designed for use in emergencies.

Personally I'd love to see weapons that have a real effect on magic, maybe there's a staff that boosts the power of fire magic, or a staff that absorbs all magic, even that cast by the user, and this absorbed magic has some additional effect(maybe boosting your stats for a while, or restoring MP, or turning you invisible, or some other bonus, possibly dependant upon the spell). I think it'd be really cool to watch magic and weapons actually compliment or oppose each other in a game, in most RPGs or similar games you either use a weapon or magic, there is no connection between the two, and personally I feel that that's a shame, if magic is so popular in the world someone would have devised a way to combine weaponry with magic for some reason.

Delilah Rehm
09-03-2009, 03:00 PM
Scragar, I'm drooling. Those are some clever ideas!

Ego weapons have huge possibilities. :) This can be soooo much more extensive than when I first heard of it!

Shadow
09-03-2009, 06:15 PM
Lots of cool ideas so far guys.

Very nice. It's a very complete feature set for an ARPG item system. To be honest, I was hoping for something mind-blowing after reading your quest system post, but then again, ARPG item systems (and the DoP one your are expanding this from) are already pretty well randomized.

It's hard to make everything mind-blowing and actually ship games. :) On some game in the future it would be cool to be able to devote a few months solely on items.

I think after hearing some of these ideas, I'm going to have to add at least a few more ego and cursed things though.

SharpCarlos
09-03-2009, 07:48 PM
Your approach to items sounds great (I am SO looking forward to this game). I'm kind of shocked at how many otherwise-good action-RPG's screw this up. It's a HUGE part of what gets me replaying games like this.

I was a little concerned with your approach to set items, as my first instinct was that having more than one part of the set appear in one drop kind of defeats the purpose. But then I realized that it just adds another thing to the slot-machine mentality of this type of game. I'm imagining the glee I'll feel when it first happens.

pnutz: Those curse suggestions are FANTASTIC. I don't think I've ever seen anything like "forces you to keep attacking until the current target is dead".

Delilah: An item that unequips itself when certain enemies approach? That would be hysterical. I'm imagining it with a little sound effect ("Eep!").

scragar: Really good point on magic users and items. I usually shy away from spell-focused classes in action-RPG's for that very reason. If most of my damage is coming from my meteor spell, it takes the fun out of finding a cool new weapon. But if, for instance I could find a staff that caused fire based spells to do 10% more damage, or use less mana, or have a shorter cooldown, then things get interesting. What if an item had a % chance to reset all my cooldowns, or top off my mana? Things like that.

Shadow
09-03-2009, 10:03 PM
Delilah: An item that unequips itself when certain enemies approach? That would be hysterical. I'm imagining it with a little sound effect ("Eep!").

Ok, I'm going to have to do the "Eep" part at least. :)

GeorgiaBoy
09-04-2009, 12:52 AM
Any plans for runes (crafting) and relics (kind of a super rune a la Titan Quest)?

GB

Shadow
09-04-2009, 10:50 AM
Any plans for runes (crafting) and relics (kind of a super rune a la Titan Quest)?

I keep thinking about doing some kind of crafting system, but it's a pretty big task and keeps getting put off to the next game.

Shadow
09-04-2009, 11:23 AM
I'm thinking about adding in a cursed mode where the player is basically cursed and can not equip any item unless it is cursed. It would be kind of like hardcore mode, just an interesting challenge. What do you guys think?

SharpCarlos
09-04-2009, 11:31 AM
I'm thinking about adding in a cursed mode where the player is basically cursed and can not equip any item unless it is cursed. It would be kind of like hardcore mode, just an interesting challenge. What do you guys think?

That's one of the craziest things I've ever heard. I like it! Will cursed items be common enough to support that, though? Or will the poor guy be mostly naked until he's lucky enough to find some armor that babbles incessantly or a helmet that's on fire and drains his hit points?

Can you find cursed set items? Will completing the set make the curse worse? :)

scragar
09-04-2009, 12:32 PM
I'd have to see the cursed mode in action to make much of a comment(otherwise it's speculation on what it will be like and thus most likely a bad comment), but it does sound very interesting shadow.

I am curious though, what happens if curses conflict? So for example one curse causes you to always attack an enemy, but another cursed item causes you to automatically run away from fights unless cornered, would you attack continuously or run away?
Or maybe one cursed item that doubles received damage could interact with one that puts a continual drain on HP, would this drain be doubled?
One final example, one cursed item cuts item drop rates, another lowers the odds of getting good magical items by a percentage, how do these percentage drops interact?

@ SharpCarlos I don't think sets can be cursed, cursed items sound like they are just normal items with curses, set items are hard coded(or at least were in DoP), so how exactly this would work I have no idea. Would be very interesting to see though.

SharpCarlos
09-04-2009, 12:39 PM
One final example, one cursed item cuts item drop rates, another lowers the odds of getting good magical items by a percentage, how do these percentage drops interact?

Hm, that gives me an idea. What if one of the possible item curses is to increase the % chance that items you find will be cursed? Pretty frustrating for a normal character, but a godsend for a cursed character. Just the way that some Diablo players try to maximize their "magic find" chance, a cursed player in this game could try and maximize his "curse find" chance.

Shadow
09-04-2009, 01:27 PM
Will cursed items be common enough to support that, though? Or will the poor guy be mostly naked until he's lucky enough to find some armor that babbles incessantly or a helmet that's on fire and drains his hit points?

Can you find cursed set items? Will completing the set make the curse worse? :)

I'm not sure, either way it would be pretty tough.

Any item that has random magic modifiers can be cursed. Set items have all preset modifiers. so they can't be randomly cursed. Of course, I could add cursed modifiers to some set items if I wanted (which I might). A cursed set would be interesting too.

I am curious though, what happens if curses conflict? So for example one curse unequips the weapon when attacked by a new enemy, but another cursed item causes you to automatticly run away from fights unless cornered, would you attack continuously or run away?
Or maybe one cursed item that doubles recieved damage could interact with one that puts a continual drain on HP, would this drain be doubled?
One final example, one cursed item cuts item drop rates, another lowers the odds of getting good magical items by a percentage, how do these percentage drops interact?

I'm not sure yet. The curses aren't fancy enough to have any conflicts yet. With the 2nd two examples, it would work fine, you would just be getting scewed twice.

What if one of the possible item curses is to increase the % chance that items you find will be cursed? Pretty frustrating for a normal character, but a godsend for a cursed character. Just the way that some Diablo players try to maximize their "magic find" chance, a cursed player in this game could try and maximize his "curse find" chance.

That would be cool if I do the cursed mode.

Shadow
09-04-2009, 02:53 PM
BTW, this thread is one of the reasons why I decided to be much more open during the development of our games. Getting early feedback on stuff helps a lot!

A small update about changes due to this thread: Now all ego items get a bonus on damage or armor (25% currently). So the basic ego item is better than the normal equivalent. It's just a matter of can you handle the quirks (if it has any)?

I've also started adding some more interesting ego types like the Axe of the Big Mouth. Weapons like this have a chance to talk every time they hit something and will alert nearby monsters.

I've also written down a lot of other ego and curse ideas, but they will probably wait till my next pass on items. I need to get to the skill system.

torikamal
09-05-2009, 11:52 AM
Another idea for items:

Ego weapons might be really great if they leveled up with you (or some sort of item). In addition ego weapons could have a quest associated with them--if you find me 100 shrubs, you will unlock my secret attribute -- probably most fun (or groan inducing), if these are randomly picked and only revealed to the player once they are fulfilled. (you'd know what it took to unlock it, just wouldn't know what you were unlocking until the quest was fulfilled).

Princess and the Toad Cursed items: Some cursed items will remain cursed until you break their curse: (if you kill 1000 orcs--with this weapon, the curse will be lifted and this item will not be -10 strength anymore)

GeorgiaBoy
09-25-2009, 08:12 PM
I keep thinking about doing some kind of crafting system, but it's a pretty big task and keeps getting put off to the next game.

Been on the road for a while--just catching up. Just was wondering if crafting is in or out for Din's curse?

Also--looking for a Christmas release?

GB

Shadow
09-26-2009, 11:36 AM
Been on the road for a while--just catching up. Just was wondering if crafting is in or out for Din's curse?

Also--looking for a Christmas release?

I'm thinking the crafting is going to be out. I don't think I'm going to have time enough in this game to do it right.

I'm hoping we release this year. I'm not trying for a Christmas release exactly though.

GeorgiaBoy
09-26-2009, 04:02 PM
I'm thinking the crafting is going to be out. I don't think I'm going to have time enough in this game to do it right.

I'm hoping we release this year. I'm not trying for a Christmas release exactly though.

Expansion pack or mod it in?

GB

Shadow
09-26-2009, 04:28 PM
I don't know yet.

Boaal
10-03-2009, 10:20 AM
Will the items have only a prefix or suffix? Or will there be a chance for both prefixes and suffixes on the same item?

Shadow
10-03-2009, 10:24 AM
Simple magic items can have a prefix and/or a suffix. All of the higher rarity item types can have both but you won't see the prefix/suffix part of the name.

GeorgiaBoy
11-20-2009, 01:21 AM
@ Shadow--While modding items in DoP, I believe item quality (#armor, damage, or whatever) is determined by ItemLevel (outside of modifiers). Will that be the same in Din's? My only gripe is that you cannot give it an exact range of armor, hit points, modifiers, etc. Even the uniques are randomized toa degree. As a modder, I wouldlike some more control over the item if easily done...

GB

Shadow
11-20-2009, 10:06 AM
It's mostly the same system. I did move the random spread stuff out to the database so you should be able to give items more exact numbers.

GeorgiaBoy
11-20-2009, 11:11 AM
Thanks Shadow. Using the item system/file structure from DoP, could I start a mod for Din's now?

GB

Shadow
11-20-2009, 11:19 AM
You probably could. Din's has a lot more magic modifiers and base items though, so it has a lot more to work with.

GeorgiaBoy
11-20-2009, 11:49 AM
Thanks again, Shadow. Iamjust putting together the spreadsheet now, so when ther beta comes out, I will just fill in the modifiers...One question though. What is the ItemLevel max so I can lay my spreadsheet correctly?

GB

Shadow
11-20-2009, 01:10 PM
Items can basically go up to level 100.

GeorgiaBoy
11-20-2009, 01:19 PM
Cool. Thanks again...last thing...I was wondering if there will be a pick and/or a scythe weapon in Din's Curse?

GB

Shadow
11-20-2009, 03:38 PM
No, the only new weapon class is the bow.

GeorgiaBoy
11-21-2009, 02:50 PM
Isn't a pick considered a polearm? Just was wondering if there would be a pick in Din's (I believe there wasn't one in DoP)...

GB

Shadow
11-22-2009, 11:05 AM
We don't have any polearms, so no we don't have a pick or scythe type weapons.

GeorgiaBoy
11-22-2009, 06:26 PM
We don't have any polearms, so no we don't have a pick or scythe type weapons.

Maybe polearms for DoP 2 then...

Have a good one,

GB