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Aganazer
01-25-2010, 10:19 AM
I couldn't find any information about Soldak's licence agreement for the released games. I would assume there is one in a manual or file for the game, just not on the web site. In particular I am looking for multiplayer information about the license.

One thing I really liked about the license agreement for Sacred 2 is that it allowed you to install it on two machines and even play both installs coop with one purchase of the game.

I play everything coop with my wife (gamer chicks rule!). I am wondering if this will require me to buy two copies of the game.

DarkShrike
01-25-2010, 10:25 AM
It would surprise me if the license agreement didnt specifically cover the you may 'use' the game on a single computer at a time clause. After all you are basically purchasing an end-user license when you buy a game. So for each concurrent user you would hopefully purchase a license.

*plus I like these games - Its their lifeblood and I would like to see them be tremendously successful so they can keep creating new games and offering the level of support they do now. How many other games do you typically get same day developer response from on the forums if you ask about an issue? :D

Aganazer
01-25-2010, 10:55 AM
How many other games do you typically get same day developer response from on the forums if you ask about an issue? :D

This is an awesome time to be a PC gamer. The indie scene is strong right now. Nearly every game I play has active developers, most of which are very chatty with the fans. This includes Basilisk Games, Kerberos, Positech Games, Soldak, Cryptic Comet, even Stardock.

I am disenchanted by the mainstream developers lately. All these blockbuster cross-platform games just feel so shallow with far too much emphasis on graphics over gameplay.

DarkShrike
01-25-2010, 11:31 AM
Yeah, it really IS a good time to be a gamer. Independent studios can spend those dollars much more effectively on producing a good game than mainstream guys can. Once you have to pay all those other parties (e.g legal, marketting, sales, advertising,....) it starts to get VERY expensive.

Shadow
01-25-2010, 11:33 AM
In the past the licenses have basically said 1 copy per user. I'm not completely sure what we are going to do for Din because of the multiplayer. I'm open to hearing opinions either way though.

I'm actually not sure why we don't have our licenses on the web page somewhere. That would actually be cool. I'm not really a fan of buying something and then finding out what the terms are.

DarkShrike
01-25-2010, 11:43 AM
For me I would personally like to see you offer a single user license with access to either platform, kind of like how Blizzard does Diablo or the warcraft strategy games. You purchase a license and you can play either version of the game as you wish - at least if you purchase the game directly from you.

I'm one player but both a PC desktop and a mac laptop user and I would enjoy only paying once to play the game however is convenient for me. If I had a family then I would have NO problems whatsoever purchasing licenses for each person. You could offer license packs though as an incentive for multi-user homes to get multiple copies.

Aganazer
01-25-2010, 03:13 PM
I am definitely a multi-user home. What I usually do is buy a multiplayer capable game and decide later if its good enough to buy a second copy. Most of the time I'll play the game alone for a couple weeks, maybe pass it on to my wife, then never touch the multiplayer because we are either tired of the game already or we don't think its good enough to invest in a second copy. I probably own 20+ games that fall into this category.

Trying a game to see if its good enough to buy two copies of will often end up with me not buying a second copy. This is bad because the games would have been better from the start if it were played multiplayer. It would have had a longer lifespan if played multiplayer from the start. This is what happened with Sacred 2. We started multiplayer from the start and it was great. We probably got well over double the play time out of it than we would have otherwise and I never would have bought the second copy anyway. The end effect is that it was just a superior purchase compared to a similar game like Titan Quest that requires multiple licenses.

Its difficult for me to make these kinds of purchasing decisions. DarkShrike said he wouldn't think twice about buying multiple licenses. Easy for him to say. ;) Its hard enough to keep two high end PC's running with enough interesting single license games that we can share. There is a lot of monetary overhead there that has prevented me from buying additional copies of games that would have been great multiplayer. Borderlands comes to mind here.

One option that I have seen in the past is allowing multiplayer only on the second installation. Rollcage, the 90's racing game, did this. This was back in the day of CD checks. When the game fails the CD check it would still start, but it would only allow the user to join a multiplayer game. I'm not sure how this would work nowadays with downloadable media. Maybe allowing a single user running the demo version to join a fully licensed version?

Some games check their license keys when joining multiplayer. Other games don't. Even Borderlands doesn't check install keys at all (discovered by accident, honestly :o). Sacred 2 would check them, but only allow the two concurrent players and no more.

In the end, Din's Curse is just a $20 game, making additional copies a lot easier to justify. On the other hand, there are probably only a small number of users that would benefit from a second multiplayer-only license. It could be a good selling point. In my case, I plan to get a pre-order copy to try out (ahem! hopefully this week). If I like it then I let my wife try it. If she likes it and if I can justify an extra $20 this month then we get another copy. That's still a lot of "if"s between me and a second purchase, but the outlook so far is good.

Whatever you decide, I'll be a supporter anyway and will probably lead to a few extra sales from the various forum communities that I am a part of. No user license decisions will effect that in any way. In other words, I won't be bitter if you decide one user per license only. I am a programmer for a living and understand that being a game programmer isn't exactly living the high life. :D

DarkShrike
01-25-2010, 03:25 PM
Thanks Aganazer - I should have qualified my purchase statement there. I agree that the key to my willingness to purchase additional licenses stems from the perceived value vs economic impact of the purchase(s). Purchasing two $20 licenses for an independent developer game is much more palatable than two $60 licenses for a mainstream game that may only entertain me for a few hours.

Wantonius
01-25-2010, 03:26 PM
I am a programmer for a living and understand that being a game programmer isn't exactly living the high life. :D

Excellent post. Although the last line depends on your outlook doesn't it? I'd take game design and programming over hunting kernel bugs for a luxury mobile phone that will have max 250 users any day. Just saying ;). I do like teaching (no need to do code anymore :D) though.

Delilah Rehm
01-25-2010, 03:27 PM
Steven and I tried to play Sacred 2 together and it crashed all the time! :mad: Hopefully it was just something funky on our systems instead of the game. Sounds like you and your wife got what we wanted. :p Lucky! ;)

Delilah Rehm
01-25-2010, 03:36 PM
Steven could be making a phat paycheck if he'd go corporate and give up game making. The money would be nice, but giving up the dream would be like making a deal with a soul-sucking devil! *dirty*

I know I'm biased and all, but really, he is an amazing programmer. He is seriously good at solving problems, fixing stuff when he was an intern that his very experienced "boss" couldn't. Beyond that, he is *the* only programmer for Soldak. He built the engine from scratch and then made some awesome games. Just saying! Yep. I'm proud. :D

DarkShrike
01-25-2010, 03:52 PM
Steven could be making a phat paycheck if he'd go corporate and give up game making. The money would be nice, but giving up the dream would be like making a deal with a soul-sucking devil! *dirty*

I know I'm biased and all, but really, he is an amazing programmer. He is seriously good at solving problems, fixing stuff when he was an intern that his very experienced "boss" couldn't. Beyond that, he is *the* only programmer for Soldak. He built the engine from scratch and then made some awesome games. Just saying! Yep. I'm proud. :D

I also don't see tons of posts here complaining about how broken game 'x' is. That says something in and of itself :)

Wantonius
01-25-2010, 04:02 PM
Steven could be making a phat paycheck if he'd go corporate and give up game making. The money would be nice, but giving up the dream would be like making a deal with a soul-sucking devil! *dirty*

I know I'm biased and all, but really, he is an amazing programmer. He is seriously good at solving problems, fixing stuff when he was an intern that his very experienced "boss" couldn't. Beyond that, he is *the* only programmer for Soldak. He built the engine from scratch and then made some awesome games. Just saying! Yep. I'm proud. :D

Couldn't agree more on that soul-sucking devil thing. I work in a small (three people teaching + manager and a secretary) company that specializes in teaching advanced Linux and Qt programming for mobile phone companies mostly under Maemo platform, although we do do some Android, S60 and iPhone. I can't picture myself going back to a large operator especially doing subcontract work for Nokia (I live in Finland so there is no other :D).

I have to say that to me programming itself is just a technical feat. It all comes down to problem solving. I'm probably biased but to me more amazing is the content than the actual programming. For example the quest system described for Din's Curse has that element of "Why don't all games have system like this?". Things actually affect each other :D. Like all brilliant ideas, it has that element of simplicity to it. Now I can see immediately a couple of ways to implement such an idea so I have to give the respect to the idea itself. Again, I have serious programming experience so I am probably biased that way. And this isn't meant to be a negative. It's just that I encounter a lot of good, a few brilliant and huge boat loads of bad programmers. Great ideas are far more rare ;).

Aganazer
01-25-2010, 04:18 PM
Steven could be making a phat paycheck if he'd go corporate and give up game making. The money would be nice, but giving up the dream would be like making a deal with a soul-sucking devil! *dirty*

I'd imagine professional game development is a difficult thing to break the ice on. It takes a dedicated and good programmer, which I am learning is a very VERY rare person!

Aganazer
01-25-2010, 04:35 PM
It's just that I encounter a lot of good, a few brilliant and huge boat loads of bad programmers. Great ideas are far more rare ;).

Agreed! I just recently went back to school to get my masters and while there I got to know a LOT of other programmers, many more than I do while working. It was almost depressing just how many of them were such poor programmers.

I make a lot of board games as a hobby. While making them about 50% of the time a certain mechanic won't work right or isn't fun and needs to be revised or sometimes scrapped completely. This is easy when you're working with bits and cards. A PC game developer doesn't have it so easy. They almost need to know exactly what will and won't work before coding. Each and every mechanic is so labor intensive that there isn't as much room for redesigning portions of the game. (That is probably why there is so little innovation in the big budget titles) This part of the design process, the need to have a clear vision for the game, has always seemed like magic to me for those designers that can bring it all together into a solid game.

Anyway, we are getting way way off the important topic of whether we will be playing Din's Curse this weekend or not!

DarkShrike
01-25-2010, 04:44 PM
Anyway, we are getting way way off the important topic of whether we will be playing Din's Curse this weekend or not!

Nooooo.... If you are you would be playing without me since my weekend is already so overbooked :( (ok, this is also assuming that there will be an opt-in available for us to help beta the game)

Delilah Rehm
01-25-2010, 04:58 PM
The beta thing is a GO. I don't know when. Probably won't know until it's happening. :p

The licensing thing is still up in the air. My first idea got pooped on by *technical difficulties*. Idea #2 will be better for some users, not so much for others. But we're still chewing on it. Steven makes the final decisions, but I'm sure there will be something on the website before/when/eventually(???) Din's Curse hits the market. Also, he'll probably post it (here/blog/new post/I don't know!).

The game is *this close* to being ready. In my opinion (because though I look powerful, I'm not the boss ;)), it could become availible any day now. Any. Day. :D

DarkShrike
01-25-2010, 05:20 PM
Then I am excited for you. It leaves me in an interesting position from a game playing point of view. I havent had time to play DoP yet. I played some Kivi's and enjoyed it but it seems like there is great benefit for me to walk into Din's with no foreknowledge of 'how things always worked'.

I have a clear mind to look at things with so i think I might just keep it that way :) Just let us know when that 'purchase' button pops up!

getter77
01-25-2010, 06:25 PM
Good to know things are chugging on along, doubly so since I received the right cables at long last and thusly Win 7 64 is sitting content and untweaked on the New PC now! Din's in the next week or so would work especially well since that's also about the time frame for a friend to pop over and get everything migrated/internet capable and set up proper, besides waiting for Take #2 of the proper mouse for it to be delivered.

I suspect that however the license shakes down it'll wind up fair in general. I mean, there's only so many ways to go about it and even then few would be relevant as this isn't like the strange and unwieldy situation the likes of Bioshock 2's "release strategy".

rnjeffrey
01-26-2010, 12:58 PM
so I guess that the reduced price and access to the beta is out of the equation now?

Shadow
01-26-2010, 01:05 PM
so I guess that the reduced price and access to the beta is out of the equation now?

That's still the plan. They are talking about the beta being ready soon, not the finished game.

derailed
01-28-2010, 04:12 PM
awesome. super excited for this beta.

sacred 2 was a great game, but it has so many technical and random problems. it seems like they implemented way too many weird things. like the physx stuff. every new patch broke the game all over again in ten other places. and now that the dev team is gone, except from a very small crew, the game is pretty much screwed from getting properly patched up. but when, the few times it works it really is beautiful. good humour. the expansion is great aswell. really huge world, and very varied. straight up doesn't work on windows 7, or is really really hard to get working.

uh yeah. din's curse I mean. that was weird

Shadow
02-01-2010, 02:45 PM
I've thought about this a lot over the last few days and think allowing 1 copy per family would be a good idea for us, so we are going to try it with Din's Curse. I'm not sure future games will do it or not (depends on how it works out with Din). Below is the relevant part of the EULA. If anyone sees any problems with it please speak up.

Under this license, you may:

(i) install this Software on as many computers as you personally own and only on computers that all physically reside at the same location. This only applies to a single family within one dwelling (house, apartment, etc), everyone else must purchase one license per computer.

(ii) assuming you are following part (i), you may have multiple people playing singleplayer or multiplayer games over a LAN (local network) at the same location at the same time. HOWEVER, YOU MAY ONLY HAVE ONE COMPUTER PLAYING OVER THE INTERNET AT A TIME PER LICENSE. To have multiple computers playing on the internet at the same time, you must buy
one license per computer and install a unique key for each computer (each license purchase gets a unique key).

(iii) copy the Software for back-up or archival purposes.

Aganazer
02-01-2010, 04:58 PM
Awesome! Simply awesome. This is great news for my wife and I.

incognoscente
02-01-2010, 11:13 PM
Respectfully, I think the wording for item (i) is a bit confusing (and long). I suggest keeping the ideas as separate sentences:

(i) install this Software on as many computers as you personally own. A single family within one dwelling (house, apartment, etc.) may share one license.


I also think the beginning of (ii) could use stronger language, like "(ii) while in compliance with part (i)", but maybe you were going for a more conversational tone than I tend to. Also, I suggest adding "area" to "(local network)".

(ii) while in compliance with part (i), you may have multiple people playing singleplayer or multiplayer games over a LAN (local area network) at the same location at the same time. ...


I hope this decision works well for you. It sounds great!

Shadow
02-02-2010, 10:14 AM
Thanks for the feedback. I've changed the EULA a bit based on this.

DarkShrike
02-03-2010, 10:44 AM
*checks forums for updates on beta - no change
grrrr
*refreshes - no change
grrrr


I'm ready for beta!! :D

Aganazer
02-03-2010, 10:59 AM
*checks forums for updates on beta - no change
grrrr
*refreshes - no change
grrrr


I'm ready for beta!! :D

Double checking the quote from the man himself, it says "I think we are going to miss the end of the month, but it will probably only be by days."

I was hoping the original post said "a few days" in which case I would be making the argument that a 'few' is three and that today is the day. :confused: Since it just says 'days' I can only assume that it means less than a week, which could be as much as six days making it this coming Saturday at the latest. :eek:

So..yeah, I probably put more effort into the analysis of the quote than Steven put into the writing of it, but what else could I possibly do while waiting? :D

DarkShrike
02-03-2010, 11:14 AM
So..yeah, I probably put more effort into the analysis of the quote than Steven put into the writing of it, but what else could I possibly do while waiting? :D

LOL - well a few days could actually be as long as a working week or so. But it is what is is. I'm just eager to see it and help contribute. :)

Wantonius
02-03-2010, 01:31 PM
LOL - well a few days could actually be as long as a working week or so. But it is what is is. I'm just eager to see it and help contribute. :)

I'm cheering for friday since 1.) gives me the whole weekend to play and 2.) I have my birthday then. First reason is more important :D.

DarkShrike
02-03-2010, 02:10 PM
I'm cheering for friday since 1.) gives me the whole weekend to play and 2.) I have my birthday then. First reason is more important :D.

Well HAPPY BIRTHDAY in advance then. My Fridays vary from being extremely available to being in meetings most of the day so I might miss it otherwise :)

getter77
02-03-2010, 02:28 PM
In general, from a practical perspective, a late friday release would dovetail well with the looming weekend which tends to afford more people gaming time versus time being eaten otherwise during the old M-F grind.

My own random guess would be by the end of next week.

Likewise, pre-emptive happy birthday to ya Wantonius.

Wantonius
02-03-2010, 02:42 PM
Thank you both. Not much to celebrate on 33th birthday but would be nice to buy Din's Curse for myself as a present *winkwink* :D.