View Full Version : getter77's class/skill overhaul of likely implausibility

02-17-2010, 10:50 PM
First of at least some mega-posts. In this one's case perhaps more than others, I'd reckon it would've been closer to overall feasibility during Alpha
testing moreso than beta, but I'd not feel right opting to not put as much of it out there as I can think to---at least bits and pieces of it should be doable.

Aside from current balance issues making things unplayable, for the most part solo at least, as the levels rise into the mid-upper teens and beyond---I
find the overall "personality" of the classes to be lacking which leads to an overall situation of a Mathletetic Skill Bag on a Treadmill. That is, everything coming down to number-play versus a style of experience---your various numbers go up comparable to enemies and nothing else "happens" in a substantial sense.

At any rate, this'll be long...probably taking more than one post. From the top:

-General issues:

-While there are no skill trees in a Diabo 2 sense, functionally, there is still a situation where some skills are restricted for a good or great many
levels before they can even begin to be incorporated, especially with any regularity, into a character---which is the main malus to a skill tree aside
from "wasted points" in prerequisites. Furthermore, even sticking to low skills, it is often the situation that you are unable to raise even an early
game, low cost skill every level due to skill point gain/needs---which just isn't very interesting and sticks out versus prior games in this niche. Ideally, all skills would be available to begin raising at lvl 1 or upon the first level up as well should it be the case that a starting skill, if chosen, should be able to be increased every single level up until cap(Is there a Cap on skills at Skill 30 or...?) unless you lack the gold for it. More synergies might or might not make things more interesting, depends on how the lot of it shapes up.

-Class choices should definitely impact starting stats, especially with stats like Spirit being almost worthless to deal with even with Classes that draw extra benefit from it considering the tiny mana gain.

-The system of inherent, passive, and active skills seems to not add much gusto to a given avatar. Aside from the equipment flavorings and the behavior of a select few Inherents, you'd not even actively think of them as a force of the character's personality. As Din's is looking to carve out a firm
spot in the "different" category---it might as well go a bit more unorthodox. I'll detail within each class moreso what I'd think would add flavor and
significant weight as to what kind of character to choose at creation.



-Perhaps boost the effects of the Str Multi Bonuses to have more significance on top of EQ needs. Really, all such things across all characters
probably need beefing up so as to more readily see the impact of stat point assignment.
-Either upon creation (best) or upon a level up in sequence starting with Bleed, then a Mastery, and ending in Arms Mastery (possibly better), let those Passive skills be Inherent to the class and all gain in potency once gained without any skill points allocated each time---just pure leveling. As it stands, one would "expect" a Weaponmaster to inherently have uncanny skill with a variety of weaponry in this manner...skill that grows alongside further maturation via level growth. One could consider it a key part of his/her "identity".
-This then leaves one with 5 Active skills to spend points upon at level up for specialization or general use, preferably with the latter skills operating from a reduced skill point cost to make them more apt to integrate into the play style at a very early level.
-Power Strike and Perfect Strike could use more differentiation---though precisely how I can't say for sure. Perhaps a Crushing Blow aspect to the former and a Critical hit aspect to the latter would suffice and be thematically in line?


-Let Bloodlust, the Focus skills, and Crushing blow be shifted to be Inherent Passives in much the same manner as the way I outline it for the Weaponmaster.
-Change Rupture Armor into something moreso resembling a Passive as it currently stands, yet as a Chance to Happen upon hit Proc instead of a Mana hungry Active skill. As to growth, let's say by a high/max level that there is a better than average chance of doing some degree of armor reduction, in
absence of other source, per successful strike. Alternatively alongside this, have it be linked to the Berserk skill for a certain thematic gain.
-Instead of an Active Skill, let Berserk become an Active self-buff that imparts the current condition on all standard attacks for the not incredibly
long durations. If linked up with Rupture Armor as suggested above, it begets an experience where the character enters a state of being that sacrifices their own protection in a bid to destroy the enemy outright/the foe's protection.
-Cleave, Whirlwind, and Savage strike seem sensible at a glance, again as a constant lobbying for higher cost skills to exist on a lower plane of point cost.
-Enrage lacks flavor. Perhaps have it force Ranged Spellcasters and the like into Melee for the duration as well as lower the Parry/Defense/Block/Avoid/etc values of attackers? As they are enraged, their judgment should be impaired on evasive/mitigating topics due to the
nature of a hotheaded attack.


-Make Plate Armor, Parry and Shield Mastery along the Inherent Passive paradigm.
-Incorporate the Blocking skill into Shield mastery as it just makes more sense and strikes as redundant otherwise.
-Shield Bash, Gut, and Block seem about right as is.
-Revenge, Riposte, and Retaliation though---those I'd like to see some mechanical changes on. Whether made to function more like current Passives(lower point cost/early access yadda yadda just assume this with all such matters) or alternating Focus skills not unlike like the Gladiator's---I see the best future for them as Auto-Procs upon enemy melee as opposed to Active use skills. Of course, said procs wouldn't trigger lacking suffient Mana to draw from. His personality strikes as the quintessential Counter-user...in this case reflexively so as opposed to a Blademaster pointedly willing themselves into a Whirlwind or some such. The current implementation as very time sensitive, as opposed to situation intensive, window-of-opportunity QTE like events just serves to break up the feel in my opinion and is unwieldy out of having to "wield". Making them Inherent Passives seems a bit much, but could also work with tinkering bearing the above in mind.

So, as a "Warrior" you'd have ample melee inherent passives and passives and a selection of various specific attacks and melee counters to bring to the fight---thereby nicely filling that role among the pantheon of Godly champions.



-Make Precision, Spot Vulnerabiliy, and Deadly Aim along the Inherent Passive paradigm.
-Perhaps Charged Strike would be more interesting as a Self-Enchantment?
-Have Precise Strike and Critical Strike adopt the same manner of Auto-Proc if Mana available and recovered as outlined for the Defender Counters.
-Other skills seem fine.


-Perhaps spice up shuriken by having the amount thrown increase along some skill levels? A "shotgun spray" of metal would be both more effective and lend something of a unique flavor. Also perhaps have them gain some chance for Bleed affliction.
-Merge Dodge and Evasion skills into one and make both the result and the Stealth skill along the Inherent Passive paradigm.
-Both Jab and Sleight of Hand must definitely give experience for kills made by influenced foes. Also, said foes should get some matter of "Anger" bonus to attack/damage/etc when attacking their bretheren.
-Daze as a 0 Mana skill? Should probably have a cost.
-Boost and/or clarify "In combat" Energetic inherent? Ambiguous situations like casting through walls? Only when stamina is subject to depletion?
-Other skills look OK


-Caltrops should have Bleed damage to go alongside the slowing---it just plain makes sense. If possible, said Bleed damage/chance should be at least 2x as effective if foes happen to be Charging or otherwise Hasted while in the affected area or thereabouts.
-Make Disarm Trap, Lock Pick, Treasure Hunter, and Dagger Mastery along the Inherent Passive paradigm.
-Likewise, fuse the Concentration Skills together and apply in a manner similar to the Focus skills of the Gladiator, likely greatly reducing the Reuse
time and other tweakings.
-Change Combat Reflexes---spending skill points to get stat points is a classic trap in many cases. Given the Dagger Mastery, I might say go for an

Inherent Passive skill based around Parrying blows and Evasion.

This overall gives as an ever-resourceful Rogue in the classic sense with a few new tricks and different directions to go in for direct and indirect battlefield intervention and interference.



-Makes Stunning Blows, Crushing Blow, Mail Armor, Mace Mastery, and a somehow differently distinguished from the Defender Shield Mastery along the Inherent Passive paradigm. Perhaps somehow attach a bonus to the Spirit stat in terms of it for a way to achieve just a higher bonus %?
-To make Smite more thematically interesting and add variety, I think it would work well for the DamageOverTime effect to be Magical in nature.
-Other skills seem OK for the most part.


-Make Precision and Prayer Inherent Passives.
-I'd think a chance to stun on Holy Strike would work well.
-If possible, a Knockback effect on Holy Symbol would also be nifty.
-Pie in the sky, but perhaps Holybolt would have more flavor if either the size of the bolt slowly increased over time so as to hit closely knit foes oR

if there was a growing chance that is would "beam" and thus perhaps hit several enemies in a line of fire.


-Lacks a Mana Regen "trick" versus others. Perhaps have Spirit give the most dramatic boost to Mana regeneration to this class for thematic sensibilities?
-Make Divine Intervention and Inherent Passive.
-Have both Blessings and all Protections target all allies instead of self or friend. Champion should remain as it is based on the description.

Standard Priest motifs achieved with support and combat options to bring to the table. May well still need more flavor though.


Fire Mage:

-Make Fire Mastery an Inherent Passive as well as have it apply to Shield of Fire and Flame Blade.
-If possible, I'd like to see the " increasing chance to beam" mechanic mentioned for Holy Bolt to apply to Fiery Blast and/or a bit of DoT Burn.
-Have growing levels in Fire Elemental also increase attack speed, movement speed, and all other relevant monster factors.

Ice Mage:

-Make Concentration and Cold Mastery Inherent Passives. Somewhat likewise with Permafrost, but more akin to a "Berserk state" and other self-affects.
-Chance to penetrate, size increase, or perhaps fragment into smaller, fractionally damaging pieces on impact, as opposed to beaming, for Arctic Shard for more flavor and utility value.
-I've not yet ran into an Ice Elemental if they exist, but should they, the Ice Mage should gain access to one as a Summon comparable to the Fire Mage.


-Make Evasion and Deep Thought Inherent Passives.
-Let all that was suggested for Holybolt apply for Arcane Blast. Reconcile the 2 by having one moreso do what the other doesn't in respect to beaming
or growing in size so as to not overlap.
-For Arcane Swarm, the energy bolts should have a HOMING aspect as opposed to random firing, or at the very least, can only choose from valid
enemy/environmental targets (heavy bias towards enemies) to randomly pick as opposed to behavior where one can be nigh surrounded and some attack a normal wall. Definitely a fan of many very small bolts upon going up in skill levels.

General Wizard with many elemental and self-serving magical things happening. Considering how daamaging foes can be in Din's they might as well be able to do many nifty things.



-Make Eagle Eye, Bow Mastery, and Dodge Inherent Passives.
-Link Flaming Arrow, Poison Arrow, and Shock Bolt.
-Reduce Reuse time for Fast Draw perhaps. In general, I would put forth many prefer a higher cost in Mana and otherwise versus a long reuse period in the interest of time and risk/reward across all such skills.
-It would also be fitting if all Arrow Skills save for Exploding had a growing, perhaps hidden, chance to Pierce.


-Make Light Touch, Trap Mastery, and Infused Energy Inherent Passives.
-Link all Trap skills and Radius progression needs to be stated in stats.
-Lure should cause Distraction up to Major, reductions in Enemy capability to Defend/Block/Parry/Dodge/Evade/etc.


-Make Earth Link and Earth Mastery Inherent Passives.
-Decrease Shapeshifting Reuse times to more closely align with the likes of Barkskin and Strength of Stone.
-Reduce Reuse time for Mana Regen skill somewhat.
-Sap Strength should also probably affect Accuracy and perhaps Movement Speed.

That knocks out the Ranger with ranged and survivalist aspected abilities.



-Make Demon Mastery and Dark Sacrifice Inherent Passives.
-Let the stuff mentioned for Holybolt likewise be considered for Shadowbolt, again with the emphasis on each ultimately having a different "quirk".
-Link all Curses and have Enfeeblement also impair Movement rate.
-Bear other relevant stats in mind for Summons same as Fire Elemental, including the likes of Resistances.


-Make Lich skill an Inherent Passive and govern other aspects of Raised attributes other than what Dark Ritual does---survival and defensive.
-Skeleton varieties should probably have an increasing chance to spawn with varying elemental weaponry/related skills.
-Have Dark Ritual also affect things like Crushing Blow, Deep Wounds...generally offensive related bonuses.


-Make Lightning Mastery and Stored Lightning Inherent Passives. Tinker with Stored's balance of returns.
-Should be a Lightning Elemental Summon as per ones I've fought same as Fire Elementals.
-I'd like to see either Beaming or Shock DoT for Lightning Blast...in line to other such skills across the various classes.
-Increase Duration to be more in line with Reuse time for Gaseous Form.

A Conjurer...big time nuking and some Minion handling.

That's about the shake of it, obviously with more to get into as it relates to other aspects of the game and finer/totally different points to hash out in regard to the entire lot. The bulk of this and other such topics have been stewing in me since the start of beta and that's about long enough to bring them out for discussion and deliberation.

02-17-2010, 11:13 PM
Hmm. I'm not sure I agree with the balance of this. In particular, I don't like the idea of making so many passive skills into automatic benefits.

If I were to make a major change to shake up the classes, here's what I'd do- I'd let you pick a new specialization at level 50. It would give a big boost to complexity and options at a level where the player is competent enough not to be overwhelmed by them, and it would be an immediate benefit because the character would be receiving enough skill points per level to immediately rank up a few skills to something worth using even at level 50.

There could be balance issues, potentially, but a fair argument could be made that post level 50 balance really isn't important as long as everyone's having fun.

02-17-2010, 11:22 PM
I had a few of the same ideas as you, actually, in regards to the various rogue specializations. I completely agree that shuriken should eventually allow you to throw more than one at a time. This could be really fun against groups of enemies.

I also agree about Caltrops, but I think that they should reduce enemy hate towards you when they step on them. Caltrops aren't just intended to slow pursuit, they're meant to deter it. Some enemies should decide walking over sharp metal bits just isn't worth it.

02-18-2010, 10:03 AM
I like that idea of turning some of the warrior skills into random proc's. Its not like warriors are going to be stacking much int to keep their mana up anyway.

02-18-2010, 11:15 AM
Hmm. I'm not sure I agree with the balance of this. In particular, I don't like the idea of making so many passive skills into automatic benefits.

If I were to make a major change to shake up the classes, here's what I'd do- I'd let you pick a new specialization at level 50. It would give a big boost to complexity and options at a level where the player is competent enough not to be overwhelmed by them, and it would be an immediate benefit because the character would be receiving enough skill points per level to immediately rank up a few skills to something worth using even at level 50.

There could be balance issues, potentially, but a fair argument could be made that post level 50 balance really isn't important as long as everyone's having fun.

-My favorings for "Passive Inherents" or something along those lines is mainly aimed at adding "substantial" flavor to each of the 18 Classes---stuff that adds a deliberate smattering of "Non-Math" traits to a class selection even if said traits are evolved mathematically. The other bit I didn't get into much to even this out would be Active skills tending to be more exciting and some notions of more Skills period as it relates to other things tied to dungeon mechanics.

-Avatars that gain skills strike me as a more interesting situation than people gaining skills so that maybe they become Avatars. In other words, let the character start at something of a "Mastery" of their field of expertise they serve as a representative of and develop it with survival and such combat beyond that to a state of being nigh Peerless. Also, this way every single hard fought level up is significant as you will make gains you can see and feel a real weight to, versus the current where many of them you just plug in 5 stat points and only Vitality produces a largely noticeable onscreen change and then with the whole chunk of it. The world of Din's Curse is pretty over the top/crazy as it is with all the goings on----level ups might as well follow suit.

-As to a 50 extra spec, I could see how it might work...but hard to say. What do you then do with people playing Non-Hybrids as I don't know that there's room for a 4th tab? How would one reconcile much aside from Passives being much use having to catch up to lvl 50+ mobs as the expense of the core class skills that you've been relying on to get you to lvl 50 in the first place? With the general balance keeping a close/rough track on you if you want to maintain Reputation and Exp gain it.

-Balance and especially flavor are key to me(this is where I generally understand the gentleman with the fervent notion of character security and integrity in regards to the server idea) due to trying to bear in mind Hardcore/Cursed characters alongside the Difficulty modes themselves. I mean, if the balance falls apart/flavor doesn't manifest past/as of "X" point and it would just serve to waste a player's time(which they'd likely not know going into it) at a Sisyphean task and sour their experience---such nifty modes and options serve no boon and might as well be gotten rid of if not heavily tweaked. It is almost impossible to take "cheap" moments out of a game with Roguelike sensibilities, but you can tremendously mitigate them with lots of flavor and some inherent thematical hardiness/boons regardless to the characters so that even if all luck turns against you past the various options at a final encounter---you'll have had one crazy ride, and stories to tell well in excess of the mere Maths represented in the character dump.