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Aganazer
02-22-2010, 09:27 PM
I find myself not needing to post quite as often anymore since I am finding fewer and fewer bugs with each new patch. I am relatively happy with the state of the game and aside from lots of "wouldn't it be cool if..." features, the biggest issues seem to be in skill balance. I still don't have any characters in the 25+ tier but I'm close and working on it.

My Ranger's Serrated Arrow seems to be too strong. With a 280% physical damage multiplier at rank 7 I can one shot most level 20-23 MOB's with my 16 dps bow. The damage multiplier is almost double what it feels like it should be compared to my other characters. Its strange since this is the first skill I've used that makes the game trivially easy to play.

The change to Mana Regen a couple patches ago has made it less fun for some reason. It seems easier to keep track of a buff that you can leave on 100% of the time than one that can only be on less then 50% of the time. Since the change, I find myself drinking mana consumables instead of using the buff. Its really just a perception issue but it took the fun out of the skill. I think it would have been better to reduce the mana regen and set the duration and cooldown so that it can stay on.

Lyranaar
02-23-2010, 09:04 AM
I agree to about all in your post. :)

I just like to add, that it's the same thing for me with the shapeshifter. It's much more fun if you can keep it up at all time. The recast costs are high anyway and it doesn't feel unbalanced (or too strong), I see no point to dissallow it to be up all times.

If you want to play Shifter, you need to spend quite some points in this skill and are much weaker therefore unshifted.

Generally I think it is a great feature for the game to be able to be shifter (Diablo 2 anyone?).
Basically the decision to limit it that way without balancing necessities feels like cutting a feature and a step back.

Please consider bringing the Shifter back to it's glory! :)

Gutsman
02-23-2010, 11:58 AM
I'm not a fan of any of those temporary buffs with long recast times. Most of them aren't really that powerful anyway.

I'd like to see them either be on all the time, or have at most a one minute recast time.

Cadfan
02-23-2010, 12:15 PM
Some temporary buffs with long recast times are actually incredibly powerful, and would be massively broken if you could keep them up continuously.

For example, the rogue's "concentration" skills. Just five ranks in the defensive one will double your defense score when its active.

Shadow
02-23-2010, 12:25 PM
Usually I try to make them decent boosts that you can use all of the time or pretty big boosts but with a reuse timer. If there are any buffs that don't fit this, please point them out.

Aganazer
02-23-2010, 02:47 PM
Usually I try to make them decent boosts that you can use all of the time or pretty big boosts but with a reuse timer. If there are any buffs that don't fit this, please point them out.

Maybe its just the medium term buffs that aren't working for me. Something like beserk with a big bonus and a long cooldown seems fine for emergency use. It becomes an "oh crap!" button. The long term always-on ones like the druid's strength and fire's fire shield are nice because any time you don't see it on, you cast it again. Its the medium term ones, and I think there may be a few, that just don't have the right mental trigger to get any regular use out of them. I try to train myself to check the cooldown and use it whenever I can, but its not working out well for some reason.

I think I faced some similar problems in other games and my eventual solution was to create a timered macro on my n52te that will mash the button whenever the cooldown is up whether I need it or not. It definitely wasn't ideal and I always assumed that it was just how my crazy head worked (or didn't work).

Unrelated to this, I had a quest to get 15 dark elf rogue ears. The entire dungeon level contained about 15 dark elf rogues but only half of them dropped ears. I had to find something else to do while waiting for them to respawn. I normally wouldn't have minded, but it was my last quest for that town.

Nemhir
02-23-2010, 04:01 PM
Ok im a bit tired being killed by those.

1) they fire too fast
2) spells doesnt trigger riposte/revenge
3) insane fire dot : what 10+ dmg/s with 32 fireresist?

on general..too much elemental dmg...i play defender/shaman and i can up elemental resist but even so im absolutly massacred by those casters...example..@ level 19 with 32 fireresist im being critted by over 40 and sometimes 70 by those.

Cadfan
02-23-2010, 08:28 PM
1. Occasionally I get towns with no monsters. At all. They always have dimensional gates and traps, but no monsters. There is another thread about this.

2. Dimensional gates sometimes spawn across doors.

3. When a zombie kills a townsperson, you get a death notification. When you kill the zombified townsperson again, you get the same death notification.

4. I'm not sure that the regeneration from vitality does anything. Its so low that you can only see it grant an entire point of health if you wait several seconds. Meanwhile, this game is deadly enough that a melee character running around with anything below 50% health is nearly suicide. That means that you're likely to be constantly eating food. But equal level food grants more hit points than you could possibly have, meaning that you will regenerate all of your missing hp, plus some, every time you eat.

Gutsman
02-24-2010, 01:16 PM
Some temporary buffs with long recast times are actually incredibly powerful, and would be massively broken if you could keep them up continuously.

For example, the rogue's "concentration" skills. Just five ranks in the defensive one will double your defense score when its active.


The problem I have with the 4 or 5 minute recharges is that I'll tend to save them for just the right occasion. Because it'll be so long before I can use them again. Which leads me to rarely ever actually using them. Which leads to me just not taking those kind of skills at all and putting my points elsewhere.

For those concentration buffs, I'd like to see them last like 10 to 15 seconds with a one minute recharge. Maybe add one second duration per skill point.
Pretty much any of those 4 or 5 minute recast buffs would work better that way, in my opinion.

Even the druid's mana regen could work like that. Make it basically a free mana drink you can use once per minute.

Wantonius
02-24-2010, 01:45 PM
My Ranger's Serrated Arrow seems to be too strong. With a 280% physical damage multiplier at rank 7 I can one shot most level 20-23 MOB's with my 16 dps bow. The damage multiplier is almost double what it feels like it should be compared to my other characters. Its strange since this is the first skill I've used that makes the game trivially easy to play.


Serrated Arrow is way too powerful. Currently I have it at level 11 and with a bow of 15.5 dps I can powershot almost any unique monster in couple of seconds no matter what the stats are. I haven't actually died with my 26 level Hunter/Firemage in a long while. My plan was to take the Serrated Arrow for against single monsters and one of the multitarget fire spells for multidamage. There has been no need for any multidamage since about level 15. The Firemage side is practically useless now when compared to Hunter. I only use the low level spells to set barrels on fire. I actually removed all points from fireball a couple of levels ago.

My max damage dealt is way over 600 and I routinely (this means all the time) get critical hits that deal over 300 points of damage basically one-shotting any monster that isn't an champion or higher. I do occasionally one-shot champions also.

Cadfan
02-24-2010, 01:54 PM
Give Hunter/Trickster a try. Combine Serrated Arrow with Stealth.

Cadfan
02-24-2010, 02:44 PM
Some miscellany

The decimal place in the Stunning Blows bonus is unnecessary. It counts by 2, so there's no reason to write out "2.0%."

When monsters break the door to a vault or special room, the game gives the same notification as if you yourself found it. This can be confusing if the vault is broken into off screen.

As it stands, Whirlwind Attack progresses too slow to justify putting points into it. I don't have a fix for this, and I recognize why it progresses at the rate it does. I just think its worth noting. If it costs 9 points to raise whirlwind by 5%, then you have to compare to Arms Mastery and your weapon Mastery skills. If Sword Mastery gives me +7.5%, which it does, then I'd have to be paying at least 13.5 per rank before I'd want to consider putting points into Whirlwind. And Sword Mastery gives me other benefits as well, such as attack and defense bonuses.

Maybe its ok that things work this way, and maybe by level 70 I'll want to invest in Whirlwind some more, and maybe that's ok. I just thought it should be noted.

Aganazer
02-24-2010, 10:36 PM
At level 20 I ran into a boss called Bloodtooth. He was one of those guys that eats corpses. He could one shot me consistently with a DOT that would tick for 50+. I forgot to pause to see what mods were on him, but I am guessing that their effects were amplified by him eating a corpse. I was able to kite him, but died about 5-6 times.

Cadfan
02-25-2010, 02:22 AM
Monster ranged energy attacks are essentially twice as good as monsters with melee attacks. A melee attack has to hit you, and then it gets absorbed by armor. For my character, this means that there's a 40% chance that I will be hit by a typical enemy, and then I absorb 60% of the damage. This means that I take approximately .4*.4= 16% of the damage aimed at me.

With ranged energy attacks, I am hit as long as I do not dodge. Sometimes dodging is impossible, like when I am right up on a monster trying to kill it with a sharp piece of metal. In these cases I am hit 100% of the time. Then, instead of my armor, my resistances absorb damage. My best resistance is 43%. That's fire resistance. I've got a lot of it because I have 9 ranks in Fire Shield, which means that I probably have as much resistance to fire as anyone has at my level. 1*.57 = 57%, so I take 57% of the fire damage that I cannot dodge. This makes monster fire damage almost four times more powerful than melee attacks. If the damage were cold damage, I would absorb only six tenths of a percent, making it almost seven times more powerful than an equivalent melee attack.

I can't solve this by putting points into Spirit. Adding ten points to spirit would give me another .6% resistance. If I put 10 points into vitality, I gain 35 hit points, which is about 10% of my total.

All of this is another way of saying that my last game session was a lot of fun, until the end when I had a dark elf mage uprising. They kill me seriously fast. I'm starting to put together a decent defense against them with Fire Shield, since it reflects their own insane damage back at them.

An altar has built to serve the goddess Valta.
The town needs more White Crystals
Sty (a Torture Torva) has plans to raid the town
Deathshroud (a Shapeshifter) has been spotted in Carniverous Cave lvl 6
Ous needs an escort from Carniverous Cave lvl 3 to Carniverous Cave lvl 7
Accepted Destroy Valta's altar quest
Accepted Gather 4 White Crystals quest
Accepted Kill Sty quest
Secret found, Illusion dispelled.
Secret found, Illusion dispelled.
Secret found, Illusion dispelled.
Nightfire (a Fire Minion) has been spotted in Carniverous Cave lvl 1
Carniverous Cave lvl 1 Gate activated!
Nightfire has been killed.
Found Lesser Vault
Deathshroud has sent the assassin Clavros (a Undead Mage) to town!
Clavros has been killed.
Solved Kill Nightfire quest
Solved Kill Clavros quest
Accepted Kill Deathshroud quest
The weaponsmiths are working on a Defensive Lightning Totem
Accepted Escort Ous quest
Accepted Activate Defensive Fire Totem quest
Accepted Build a Defensive Lightning Totem quest
A potential new Vendor has been found
Accepted Escort Ous quest
A potential new Weaponsmith has been found
Ember was killed by Sty in Carniverous Cave lvl 1!

This was a one shot kill, but I don't begrudge it much. He got a critical hit. If its an isolated kind of thing, its just bad luck.

Sty has been killed.
Solved Kill Sty quest
Solved Gather 4 White Crystals quest
Accepted Recruit a new Vendor quest
Accepted Recruit a new Weaponsmith quest
Ember was killed by a Mountain Saurian in Carniverous Cave lvl 2!
Ander has gathered the White Clovers needed

The "Ander has gathered..." message should be changed if Ander doesn't then help construct the totem.

Failed Build a Defensive Lightning Totem quest
Deathshroud (a Shapeshifter) has formed a group of monsters in Carniverous Cave lvl 6
Failed Kill Deathshroud quest
Ember was killed by a Dark Elf Mage in Carniverous Cave lvl 2!
Now level 38: +5 attribute points and +9 skill points!
Ember was killed by a Dark Elf Mage in Carniverous Cave lvl 2!
We are now at war with the Dark Elf Mages.
Valta's Altar has been destroyed.
Carniverous Cave lvl 2 Gate activated!
Solved Destroy Valta's altar quest
Tara (Potion Vendor) has joined Panfast
Solved Recruit a new Vendor quest
Sashleen (Weaponsmith) has joined Panfast
Solved Recruit a new Weaponsmith quest
Accepted Gather 5 White Crystals quest
Accepted War with Dark Elf Mages quest
Ember was killed by a Dark Elf Mage in Carniverous Cave lvl 2!
Ember was killed by a Fire Cone Trap in Carniverous Cave lvl 2!
The town is almost finished building Defensive Ice Totem
Ember was killed by a Dark Elf Mage in Carniverous Cave lvl 2!
Ember was killed by a Dark Elf Mage in Carniverous Cave lvl 2!
Solved War with Dark Elf Mages quest
Accepted Kill Deathshroud's group quest
Accepted Deliver package quest
Accepted Finish the Defensive Ice Totem quest
Ember was killed by a Dark Elf Mage in Carniverous Cave lvl 2!
Ember was killed by a Dark Elf Mage in Carniverous Cave lvl 2!
Ember was killed by a Dark Elf Mage in Carniverous Cave lvl 2!
Ember was killed by a Dark Elf Mage in Carniverous Cave lvl 2!
Defensive Ice Totem added to town
Solved Finish the Defensive Ice Totem quest

Note that these guys were killing me with fire and ice damage. I absorb fire really, really well. I don't absorb ice at all. Both were very lethal.

Cadfan
02-25-2010, 02:25 AM
I guess I should say on a positive note that the town before this was an absolute dream. This is my death rate on a good town that's slightly above my level.

The apothecary needs more Bat Tongues
Filch is now boss of Vehement Chambers lvl 2
An important delivery needs to be made to Alfonson
Foulsplitter is now boss of Vehement Chambers lvl 5
The town needs more Dark Elf Guardian ears
The town wants to build a Regeneration Obelisk
Accepted Gather 6 Bat Tongues quest
Accepted Deliver package quest
Accepted Kill Filch the boss quest
Ember was killed by a Dark Elf Assassin in Vehement Chambers lvl 1!
Chest stuck
34SP 55CP stolen
Filch has sent a Carrion Eater hunter to Vehement Chambers lvl 1.
Filch has built an evil altar.
Evil Altar has been destroyed.
Ember was killed by Vark in Vehement Chambers lvl 2!
An altar has built to serve the god Hamlec.
Solved Destroy the evil altar quest
Accepted Kill Carrion Eater hunter quest
Accepted Kill Vark quest
Accepted Destroy Hamlec's altar quest
Carrion Eater hunter has been killed.
Solved Kill Carrion Eater hunter quest
Vehement Chambers lvl 2 Gate activated!
Vark has been killed.
Due to the influence of Hamlec's Altar, an uprising of Hellhounds has started in Vehement Chambers lvl 1.
39SP 79CP stolen
Solved Gather 6 Bat Tongues quest
Solved Deliver package quest
Solved Kill Filch the boss quest
Solved Kill Vark quest
Accepted Hellhounds uprising quest
Found Lesser Sanctuary
Ember was killed by a Cave-in in Vehement Chambers lvl 1!
Due to the influence of Hamlec's Altar, an uprising of Carrion Eaters has started in Vehement Chambers lvl 1.
Ember was killed by a Dark Elf Assassin in Vehement Chambers lvl 1!
Vehement Chambers lvl 1 Gate activated!
Solved Hellhounds uprising quest
Accepted Carrion Eaters uprising quest
Ember has died in Vehement Chambers lvl 1!
Hamlec's Altar has been destroyed.
Solved Destroy Hamlec's altar quest
Now reputation level 10: received Chirmu as a reward!
Solved Carrion Eaters uprising quest
Accepted Build a Regeneration Obelisk quest
Accepted Find 5 Dark Elf Guardian ears quest
Accepted Deliver package quest
Accepted Find 1 Poison Totem splinter quest
Accepted Kill Foulsplitter the boss quest
Ember was killed by a Dark Elf Mage in Vehement Chambers lvl 3!
Vehement Chambers lvl 3 Gate activated!
Ember was killed by a Dark Elf Mage in Vehement Chambers lvl 3!
Vehement Chambers lvl 4 Gate activated!
Now level 37: +5 attribute points and +9 skill points!
Vehement Chambers lvl 5 Gate activated!
Solved Find 1 Poison Totem splinter quest
Solved Find 5 Dark Elf Guardian ears quest
Ember was killed by a Dark Elf Guardian in Vehement Chambers lvl 5!
Found Lesser Vault
Treasure location marked on world map (Vehement Chambers lvl 3)
Accepted Find the buried treasure quest
Solved Deliver package quest
Solved Kill Foulsplitter the boss quest
Regeneration Obelisk added to town
Solved Build a Regeneration Obelisk quest
Reward chest (lvl 43) now available in town center!

timeh
02-25-2010, 10:06 AM
This means that I take approximately .4*.4= 16% of the damage aimed at me.

isn't it just 40%, 40% of the time? which is still 40%... misses do no damage


They kill me seriously fast. I'm starting to put together a decent defense against them with Fire Shield, since it reflects their own insane damage back at them.

it reflects YOUR damage back to them, not theirs
my 14k+ dps fire mage/healer in v0.903 (high 70's toon, stacking rank 20 flame blade buffs... could get 7 of them on at once) was clearing level 100 maps fairly easily by tanking and self healing, never actually hitting a mob with her staff

viper34j
02-25-2010, 10:14 AM
isn't it just 40%, 40% of the time? which is still 40%... misses do no damage

Yes, but 40% damage hitting 40% of the time is 16% "aimed" damage.

Examples:
Assume the monster hits for 100hp.

If a monster hits 100% of the time, but you absorb 60% (60hp) of the damage inflicted, you will take 40% (40hp) of the damage "aimed" at you.

If you are struck by a monster only 40% of the time (meaning that on average you only receive 40hp worth of damage) and you absorb 60% (24hp) of any attack that actually hits you, you will only take 16% of the damage (16hp) "aimed" at you.

timeh
02-25-2010, 10:25 AM
over time you take 16%, not per hit... chance to hit doesn't change the damage

viper34j
02-25-2010, 10:34 AM
Right, and that was his point. Overtime, versus a melee enemy, he was takes only 16% of the damage "aimed" at him.

His argument is that magic doesn't have a Chance To Hit, it always hits (assuming you didn't manually dodge the projectile, which isn't possible when you are actually engaging the unit as a melee character). Also, in general, the resistance amounts are less than the absorb damage values against melee enemies.

Cadfan
02-25-2010, 11:35 AM
Right. The issue is damage aimed at you over time. If a melee monster attacked me one hundred times for one hundred damage per attack, he'd be "aiming" 10,000 damage at me. But he'd only hit with 40% of those, which is 4,000 damage worth of attacks. And then I'd absorb 60% of it all, so I'd only actually take 1600 damage.

Versus a fire enemy who attacked me 100 times for 100 damage, things would be different. I'd be hit nearly 100% of the time, if we only count attacks that occur in melee range or near to it where I cannot effectively dodge. And then I'd absorb 43% of the damage. I'd take about 5,700 damage, minus whatever I dodged.

Shadow
02-25-2010, 06:56 PM
I'm not disagreeing with your point, but just to throw more data into your calculations casters tend to do somewhere around 60% to 75% of normal damage.

Shadow
02-25-2010, 07:38 PM
Ok, a little correction. They are supposed to be doing less damage per attack. However, in reality there was 2 bugs increasing their damage. :(

viper34j
02-25-2010, 07:41 PM
Ok, a little correction. They are supposed to be doing less damage per attack. However, in reality there was 2 bugs increasing their damage. :(

Aha!! I knew something was up. This next patch should be lovely.

FloodSpectre
02-25-2010, 08:10 PM
Maybe that's why these Dark Elf Priests are owning me. The mages became a lot more manageable after one of the patches, but the Priests are nuts. I just took a critical for 82 from one of those bastards, and my total health is only about 240. Ouch.

PulpExposure
02-25-2010, 09:07 PM
I have real issues with money and consumables in this game for melee guys. I have been playing melee, and I find that the food and potions become way too expensive after level 10 or so. I was just in a dungeon fighting those dark elf disciples, and needing to down food to regen hitpoints for most fights. Well, each food I eat cost like 2 silver, each potion I drink is even more...and I've found that lately every foray into the dungeon, even returning with full loot, I still end up losing money.

I can understand keeping the potion costs high, but food right now costs more than most weapons/armor I can buy from the vendors. That's a bit out of place.

It's actually a bit frustrating when I switch from my warrior to an ranger (and no, I don't even abuse the serrated arrow skill), because the way this game is going, I can't see why you'd want to play straight melee. You end up doing similar damage, but with range, you take way, WAY less damage, as you're out of melee range for most of the time (if you play smart).

Also, I thought in .905 we weren't supposed to see champion totems anymore? I saw a Dark Elf Champion totem in the dungeon...

Rockstronaut
02-26-2010, 05:35 PM
Minor bug I noticed:

Healer's Holy Strike attack either a) doesn't do lightning damage or b) Saurian lighting resistance is bugged. They take the exact same damage as everything else.

I should also point out that utility of the skill itself is rather questionable as Holy Bolt does more damage for less skill points and mana. If the beam couldn't be blocked by intervening creatures it might be useful for taking out distant targets while being swarmed...or maybe some kind of status effect or bonus undead damage or something.

I also encountered a Jewelery vendor with no items for sale. A few items spawned on him some time later.