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View Full Version : [WIP/BETA] ** Deeper Dins ** Class and Balance Overhaul.


The_Dajaw
04-06-2010, 01:16 AM
Deeper Din's 0.1d BETA

Summary:

- All new classes and overhauled class system.
- Slower gameplay.
- Overhauled general balance.
- New skills.

Installation: Copy the attached zip file into your Din's Curse\Assets folder.

Hello all, first of all I love Dins Curse. Both Depths of Peril and Dins Curse have been a breath of fresh air to the stagnant ARPG genre, this is my humble attempt at making the class system more interesting.

After playing a few characters I decided to make a little mod to make things more difficult and interesting. This grew into some new classes and eventually a complete overhaul of the balance of the game.

1. Classes

I love the ability to dual class in an ARPG! Its great thinking of cool skill combos and unbeatable builds (until the nerf patch comes along!)... I have tried to make dual classing more interesting and robust. So this is what I have done:

Every single skill tree is a full class... that means when you are dualing you are really dualing classes rather than skill trees. Each class has therefore been made to stand on its own two feet as a pure class as well - Each class has on average 15 skills. (not including things like base armor equip passives)

http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii336/dstone16321/Dins/ClassScreen.jpg

The benefit for staying as a pure class is a bonus passive that you get, to represent your focus in a single discipline. This amounts to extra health, defense etc... I think this is better than cutting the amount of skills you get, I always thought that a dual classed character should be weaker but have more options than a pure class...

The Classes:

http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii336/dstone16321/Dins/CharacterScreen.jpg

Warriors:
Fighter, Barbarian, Sword Master, Paladin, Anti-Paladin, Bowman.
Rogues:
Thief, Assassin, Ninja.
Nature:
Ranger, Druid ,Wildman.
Divine:
Priest, Dark Priest, Zealot.
Arcane/Other:
Mage, Battle Mage, Sorcerer, Monk
(There are a couple more coming soon depending on the feedback I get)

2. Skill and Balance System

In order to further increase the individual feel of a 'class' rather than a skill tree... I have taken a leaf out of D&D's book and implemented a class based attribute system. Each class group (eg. Warriors) has a base amount of health, power, defense, attack and a few other stats. which are further impacted by the classes attributes.

You no longer get attribute points at level up, they are for the most part, static (certain gear and buff's can improve/penalize attributes). This gives a lot of interesting possiblities to consider when dual classing, and also help differentiate the classes even more.

For example, in vanilla din's; two axes one at level 50 and one at level 1, will have wildly different strength requirements. Even though they are the same size, made of the same material and pretty much the same weapon... Or, a level 50 short sword will require more strength than a lvl 1 two handed maul... This makes no sense. - So, item attribute requirements can now be static depending on the item type.

- So if you do not get attributes how do you get more powerful? (I hear you ask :P)

Each class gets a training skill, which is pretty much required to be taken each level to gain health and mana... this also includes the classes base defense and attack increase, and depending on attributes, various other increases to stats.

Skills:

You now get 65 points a level, increasing by 5 every 10 levels.

Skills no longer increase in SP cost as you put points in them.

Skills are now organised into tiers...

Tier 0 - These skills cost no power, and are generally useful throughout the whole game. Often very powerful but with high cooldowns.

Tier 1 - The bread and butter skills, basic survival and damage skills go here. Some classes even get area of effects. (2 Points)

Tier 2 - Getting warmer... these skills are very powerful, but often require a lot of mana. Some good passives can often be found in this tier. (5 Points)

Tier 3 - These are the game changers. Very powerful at low levels, but with collossal mana costs... massive aoe spells, powerful summons, and amazing passives often are found here. (10 Points)

The training skill sits on top of these tiers. It is 6 times the cost of a tier 3 skill, but the only way you will power your abilities is to invest points into it. There may be times where you can subtract points and really splash out on your other spells and skills... but generally you will be taking it every level. Some classes may find more benefit in avoiding a training skill now and again than others - pure classed characters will be at an advantage here.

Skills now scale linearly. For a damage spell, it will add its base damage again for each point invested (eg 1-4, 2-8, 3-12) and add its power cost again.

Item/Weapon balance:

Items have been rebalanced to fall in line with the new system. Armor pieces now give you defense as well as armor (better armor would surely deflect a lot of blows entirely!) You will generally get hit a lot less often, with good gear and a high defense character you can be looking at as little as 10% of the time. However, monsters will do more damage when they do hit, and boss monsters will have a far greater chance to hit you.

The difference between weapons is far more pronounced. Two handed weapons do double the damage of their one handed counterparts, and weapon speeds have been standardised to 1 swing a second. The only way to increase attack speed is with certain skills (e.g sword mastery, monk speed...) I did this because I was fed up with using daggers and staves as a warrior when there are axes and swords lying around.

Characters like assassins will get skills that make the dagger the best weapon for them to use, even though it is the weakest weapon overall.

The increased damage on the heavy weapons also factors into the class system in terms of the attribute requirements, dual classers will have to be careful or they may lose the ability to use bigger weapons.

Weapons:

Daggers: Weakest weapons in most hands, but incredible for assassins - 1str
Staves: Slightly stronger than daggers but requires both hands - 1str
Swords: Good all round weapon... most people can wield one. - 8str
Mace: Higher max damage than a sword or axe but less min damage - 9str
Axe: Best one handed weapon - 10Str
2H Sword: Double damage of a regular sword - 11Str
2H Mace: Double mace damage - 12Str
2H Axe: Double Axe damage - 13Str

Bows: slightly better than a staff, but ranged - 10Dex

3. Other Stuff

The monsters and general item modifiers have been rebalanced. The game feels more difficult in general, and includes longer, more intense fights. It also rewards tactical play due to far higher monster HP's (ever use dots on regular mobs in vanilla din's?).

Potions and elixirs are more interesting and provide very good bonuses, they also last a lot longer. You get 3 at the start to ease you into the game. You will be looking for these potions now instead of ignoring them!

Money drops are more generous to allow you to buy food and potions if you are a warrior without healing! I found the money a bit stingy in the original game. Skills also cost less so you can experiment and respec more often.

Identifying is now instant. (It was really annoying and I don't personally see the point in having unidentified items in an ARPG where you can't use them until they are identified.) Opening chests is the same, almost instant. No needless waiting.

If I think of anything else I shall edit this post! :)

4. So why is this a beta?

I know I must of overlooked many balancing issues, and I can't possibly play test each class combination, or even class as much as it deserves. So I would like plenty of feedback on the 'feel' of the game and what needs changing. Things like sets and uniques for example will need a lot of tweaking I expect.

I haven't yet tested multiplayer, so it would be interesting to see if it works.

I have ideas for other classes, but i'd really like to hear what you guys want. Any skills ideas or class suggestions? I'd love to hear them.



Version History

0.1
- First Release.

0.1a
- Renamed zip to ensure mac compatibility.

0.1b
- Reduced 'pure class' health and mana buffs by 50%
- Introduced some new item procs, replacing most of the old ones.
- Fixed AllAttributes modifier (should no longer appear)
- Improved levelling speed slightly at low levels.

0.1c
- Fixed problem with negative stats - Stat base is now 10.
- Fixed defensive stance scaling
- Fixed problem wildman skill tree linking problem.

0.1d
- Fixed immolation scaling, doubled damage, reduced mana and cooldown.
- Rebalanced monk 'ki' stances. Incurred max health penalty to both except power, reduced power damage bonus.
- Improved infinite mana regen rate. (please let me know if there is still a problem as I am yet to run into one!)

Bogeyman
04-06-2010, 02:28 AM
Well, I was excited to try it out, but I couldn't get it to work. I dropped the ZIP into the Assets folder, but the game looks no different. This is my first attempt to install/use a mod, so maybe I don't know what I'm doing?

The_Dajaw
04-06-2010, 02:34 AM
Well, I was excited to try it out, but I couldn't get it to work. I dropped the ZIP into the Assets folder, but the game looks no different. This is my first attempt to install/use a mod, so maybe I don't know what I'm doing?

That sounds about right, you just drop the zip in the assets folder... It does work I've just tested it with a clean install and the zip I attached. When you create a new character you should get more options as in the screen shots...

Hmmm... Yeah as long as its in Din's Curse\Assets it really should work...

Bogeyman
04-06-2010, 02:42 AM
I'm on a Mac, don't know if that matters :confused:

The_Dajaw
04-06-2010, 02:44 AM
I'm on a Mac, don't know if that matters :confused:

I have no idea I'm afraid... I'm a windows user. Perhaps try extracting the zip file. (Database and UI need to be in your assets folder)

Bogeyman
04-06-2010, 02:45 AM
Ah, score. I renamed the file to 'assets4.zip' and it worked just fine! Going to give your mod a whirl! :)

Bogeyman
04-06-2010, 02:53 AM
Just a bug note for ya. It seems that the Anti Paladin has a skill called Black Bolt. I tried running it all the way up to level 5, but it does 1-4 magic damage on all 5 levels.

The_Dajaw
04-06-2010, 03:01 AM
Just a bug note for ya. It seems that the Anti Paladin has a skill called Black Bolt. I tried running it all the way up to level 5, but it does 1-4 magic damage on all 5 levels.

Thanks mate, unfortunately I don't have as much time as i'd like to test every skill for every class, but well spotted i'll change it now. I expect to see a few bugs here and there!

Much appreciated!

EDIT: Fixed version is uploaded.

udm
04-06-2010, 03:40 AM
Brilliant stuff Dajaw. I was planning to work on an epic mod like this too, but looks like you beat me to it. Mayhaps we can collaborate in the near future? :)

The_Dajaw
04-06-2010, 03:59 AM
Brilliant stuff Dajaw. I was planning to work on an epic mod like this too, but looks like you beat me to it. Mayhaps we can collaborate in the near future? :)

hehe sure, its early days yet... and plenty of room for improvement. If you want to code up some skills or classes, items, quests, anything that fits in with the general balance of the mod I could use it. We have an excellent base for modding copious amounts of 'stuff' in. This is just a weeks work :P

udm
04-06-2010, 04:45 AM
If by code, you mean anything related to C++ or any computer language, then I'm out of the game lol.

The_Dajaw
04-06-2010, 06:20 AM
If by code, you mean anything related to C++ or any computer language, then I'm out of the game lol.

:) I wish! No, no i'm just talking about the data system din's curse uses. Its really simple.

udm
04-06-2010, 08:30 AM
Yeah. It's by far one of the simplest modding systems I've ever played around with, even far simpler than id Tech. And it's so flexible too. Just gotta love it.

Sure, maybe we can collaborate or something next time. Right now I'm planning to do something similar to your mod too, so we'll see how things go ;)

Shadow
04-06-2010, 09:55 AM
Just a quick note, changing the name of the zip file to start with a lower cased letter might fix the initial problem for macs.

timeh
04-06-2010, 12:27 PM
wow... just wow...

amazing work!

The_Dajaw
04-06-2010, 01:08 PM
Just a quick note, changing the name of the zip file to start with a lower cased letter might fix the initial problem for macs.

Aha! re-uploaded a lower case version. :)

Axegrinder
04-06-2010, 08:44 PM
Nice! Going to have fun tonight.

Caal
04-07-2010, 12:30 AM
It looks like DC modding just got off to a flying start. Awesome job Dajaw - keep up the good work.

Warfran
04-07-2010, 11:26 AM
Wow, just really well done Dajaw!

You've taken an already great game and gave it a whole different flavor, can't believe this is only a weeks worth of work.

TechRay
04-08-2010, 03:12 PM
If I install this mod will it overwrite my vanilla characters?

The_Dajaw
04-08-2010, 06:18 PM
@techray - No, mods for Din's should never overwrite characters. Infact vanilla characters will even work with the mod but the balance will probably be completely off.

The_Dajaw
04-08-2010, 06:19 PM
EDIT: Accidental double post.

Bogeyman
04-09-2010, 01:32 AM
No, it won't delete old characters. However, if you try to play your old characters once you've installed the mod, you'll get some bizarre results :rolleyes:

Bogeyman
04-09-2010, 02:40 AM
:D:D:D

I think you've created the best class I've seen in the game:

Dark Priest <--- Blight + Plate = Awesome

Here's the man at LEVEL 4, outfitted, of course, with goodies from my Shared Chest:

----

Erson

Level 4 Dark Priest

Stats

Health: 200 / 200
Mana: 1073 / 1073

Attack: 59
Defense: 86
Armor: 171

Damage: 15 - 49
Dps: 32.0

Reputation Level: 1

Money: 33SP 29CP

Attributes

Strength: 7
Dexterity: 6
Vitality: 8
Intelligence: 8
Spirit: 12

Points Left: 0

Resistances

Fire Resistance: 2
Cold Resistance: 2
Poison Resistance: 12
Lightning Resistance: 2
Magic Resistance: 4

Skills

DarkPriest Training lvl 2
Blight lvl 4
Summon Dead lvl 3
Mace Mastery lvl 2
Divine Blessing lvl 3

Points Left: 0

Equipment

The Corinthian
Light Plate Helmet
Rarity: Artifact Basic Type: Plate
Durability 20 / 20
65 armor
+5 Attack
+16 Armor
+13 Max Health
+1 Fire Resistance
+1 Magic Resistance
+24% armor
Requires 5 Strength
Requires armor skill: Plate
Sell value: 3SP 87CP
Retail value: 33SP 94CP

Ring Mail Shoulders (Ego)
Rarity: Rare Basic Type: Mail
Durability 10 / 10
6 armor
7 defense
Ego: +25% armor bonus
+5 Max Health
+32% armor
2.9% chance to cast level 2 Stun when hit
Requires 3 Strength
Requires armor skill: Mail
Sell value: 90CP
Retail value: 3SP 88CP

Schorl Bronze Scale Tunic of Protection
Rarity: Uncommon Basic Type: Mail
Durability 15 / 15
36 armor
22 defense
+20 Armor
+2 Magic Resistance
+5% armor
Requires 3 Strength
Requires armor skill: Mail
Sell value: 2SP 85CP
Retail value: 15SP 5CP

Bloodmoon
Light Plate Bracers
Rarity: Elite Basic Type: Plate
Durability 23 / 23
15 armor
+28 Defense
+22 Attack
+23 Max Health
+5 Poison Resistance
+21% armor
Requires 5 Strength
Requires armor skill: Plate
Sell value: 3SP 0CP
Retail value: 16SP 24CP

Soft Leather Gloves
Rarity: Very Rare Basic Type: Leather
Durability 11 / 11
5 armor
4 defense
+1 Defense
+2 Cold Resistance
+4% Find Items Chance
+10% armor
Requires armor skill: Leather
Sell value: 28CP
Retail value: 1SP 18CP

Mudbeard's Belt
Light Plate Belt
Rarity: Set Basic Type: Plate
Durability 22 / 22
25 armor
+10 Armor
+17 Max Health
+1 Lightning Resistance
+1 Magic Resistance
+12% armor

Mudbeard's Set: Mudbeard's Hammer,
Mudbeard's Chestpiece, Mudbeard's Spaulder,
Mudbeard's Helmet, Mudbeard's Belt,
Mudbeard's Boots

With 3 items:
+8 Max Damage

With all 6 items:
+16 Max Damage

Requires armor skill: Plate
Sell value: 2SP 12CP
Retail value: 10SP 12CP

Bronze Scale Greaves
Rarity: Very Rare Basic Type: Mail
Durability 14 / 14
14 armor
+1 Fire Resistance
+6% Find Items Chance
+6 Light Intensity
+10% armor
3.4% chance to cast level 3 Petrify when hit
Requires 3 Strength
Requires armor skill: Mail
Sell value: 1SP 15CP
Retail value: 5SP 3CP

Quilted Boots
Rarity: Very Rare Basic Type: Cloth
Durability 14 / 14
5 armor
+3 Strength
+3 Dexterity
+3 Vitality
+3 Intelligence
+3 Spirit
+69 Maximum Mana
+7 Poison Resistance
+1 Max Stamina
+10% armor
Requires level 2
Requires armor skill: Cloth
Sell value: 2SP 93CP
Retail value: 58SP 63CP

Nimble Jewelry
Rarity: Common
+3 Defense
Requires level 2
Sell value: 6CP
Retail value: 26CP

Bonecrusher
Spiked Club
Rarity: Artifact Basic Type: Mace
Durability 21 / 21
8 to 25 Damage Speed 1.00
16.5 damage per second
+4 Max Damage
+1 Mana Regen
+1 Lightning Resistance
+40% Crushing Blow
+40% damage
Requires 4 Strength
Requires weapon skill: Mace
Sell value: 3SP 41CP
Retail value: 20SP 20CP


Fun stats

Kills: 160
Deaths: 0
Kills Per Death: 160

Gold Found: 25SP 5CP
Time Played: 38m 42s
Max Damage Dealt: 102
Max Damage Taken: 4
Max Damage Dealt At Once: 102
Max Health Healed: 167

Best Trap Disarmed: lvl 0

Strongest Monster Defeated: Bloodwitch (Lvl 2)
Toughest Battle Won: Bingor (Lvl 1) at Lvl 1
Strongest Monster Killed By: None
Weakest Monster Killed By: None

Quests Solved: 9

Equipment Worth: 1GP 64SP 53CP
Inventory Worth: 1GP 74SP 55CP

Secrets Found: 0

Towns Saved: 0
Towns Abandoned: 0
Towns Lost: 0

Din's Curse / Soldak Entertainment

The_Dajaw
04-09-2010, 02:52 AM
:D:D:D

I think you've created the best class I've seen in the game:

Dark Priest <--- Blight + Plate = Awesome

* snip *

How the hell did you get 7 str mister?! are you using shared stash items from the vanilla game or something? As far as I know that should be impossible as a dark priest! :P

EDIT: Ah I see the boots. How did you get them? stats on items should be +1 max... and only on very few items.

Bogeyman
04-09-2010, 02:55 AM
Who me??? :p

The_Dajaw
04-09-2010, 03:01 AM
Yeah seriously own up, I know that item could not of been aquired with my mod :P

Priests can't actually wear plate without dual classing or using bulls strength. They can only just wear it, so be careful when you dual class low strength chars with priests kids!

EDIT: haha I see you ninja edited your post :) Still naughty naughty for using those items... :)

Double EDIT: God you've got a lot of health on those naughty items as well. There is no way you should have that much health with only 2 priest training levels! Surely its just too easy?

Bogeyman
04-09-2010, 11:55 AM
But FUN!! Seriously, I'm having the most fun with this guy I've had playing the game so far. I actually didn't realize that I wasn't "supposed to" be using the items from the shared stash (which I obviously am ;)), and there's no doubt it's making the early game easier than it's supposed to be.

That said, I'm having a blast with this character. He's a lot of fun to play, and I suspect that the shared items will become obsolete once he hits level 15 or so. If so, then I achieved my goal: to fast-track a new character to level 15-ish.

If that sounds like a goofy goal, there's a reason: I've played a number of different characters up to that level, just trying to get a feel for which one felt the best once they had some skills & equipment. I thought it was going to be the vanilla "Thief" but after level 15 I got a little bored. Starting a new character and building back to level 15 is time-intensive, so I thought it would be pretty cool to be able to fast-track new characters to about that level. Since there's no editor, the best route I could think of was a strategic use of the shared stash to give new characters an advantage, and therefore, level faster. After reaching my goal of 15, the gear I'm wearing will likely have been replaced by new stuff I'm finding in the dungeons.

So now you know my secret(s) :eek:

The_Dajaw
04-09-2010, 07:34 PM
New mini patch up fixing a few things.

(Check first post)

Vlaros
04-10-2010, 11:45 AM
Pretty nifty mod so far. A couple observations though.

It is possible to make an unplayable character. And I don't just mean gimp. I tried out Barbarian/Wildman, and I ended up with negative numbers for stats like Dex and Int (I think). For whatever reason, that made it impossible for me to use any items, even potions.

Also, I think Defensive Stance (definitely for Sword Master, not sure about others) does not scale up with points at all. At least the tooltip for level 2 did not show any difference from level 1.

As much as I like the more front-loaded class structure that you have here, I think it does lose a lot in the way of fun character progression. After the first few levels of getting the essentials, progression feels stagnant. It feels like there isn't too much improvement beyond the first point into most skills. One point into Dagger Mastery for Assassins gets you the attack speed buff... beyond that... meh.

And some things are just way out of whack, in my opinion. Monk, for example, is just way too tempting as a second class with those initial freebie stances they get. And they have some really nice passive/toggles later on too. If there were any way to put some restrictions into the really powerful stuff, you might get better balance. Like if you could not be wearing anything better than cloth armor to use those monk stances. Something along those lines at the very least. Pure monks have the restriction of course, but go ahead and try out Fighter/Monk for a couple hours and bask in the glory of uberness.

I do like what you've done though, and I definitely appreciate the effort. I'll be keeping an eye out on this mod as you work out the kinks.

Vlaros
04-10-2010, 11:50 AM
Pretty nifty mod so far. A couple observations though.

It is possible to make an unplayable character. And I don't just mean gimp. I tried out Barbarian/Wildman, and I ended up with negative numbers for stats like Dex and Int (I think). For whatever reason, that made it impossible for me to use any items, even potions.

Also, I think Defensive Stance (definitely for Sword Master, not sure about others) does not scale up with points at all. At least the tooltip for level 2 did not show any difference from level 1.

As much as I like the more front-loaded class structure that you have here, I think it does lose a lot in the way of fun character progression. After the first few levels of getting the essentials, progression feels stagnant. It feels like there isn't too much improvement beyond the first point into most skills. One point into Dagger Mastery for Assassins gets you the attack speed buff... beyond that... meh.

And some things are just way out of whack, in my opinion. Monk, for example, is just way too tempting as a second class with those initial freebie stances they get. And they have some really nice passive/toggles later on too. If there were any way to put some restrictions into the really powerful stuff, you might get better balance. Like if you could not be wearing anything better than cloth armor to use those monk stances. Something along those lines at the very least. Pure monks have the restriction of course, but go ahead and try out Fighter/Monk for a couple hours and bask in the glory of uberness.

I do like what you've done though, and I definitely appreciate the effort. I'll be keeping an eye out on this mod as you work out the kinks.

The_Dajaw
04-10-2010, 01:29 PM
Pretty nifty mod so far. A couple observations though.

It is possible to make an unplayable character. And I don't just mean gimp. I tried out Barbarian/Wildman, and I ended up with negative numbers for stats like Dex and Int (I think). For whatever reason, that made it impossible for me to use any items, even potions.

Also, I think Defensive Stance (definitely for Sword Master, not sure about others) does not scale up with points at all. At least the tooltip for level 2 did not show any difference from level 1.

As much as I like the more front-loaded class structure that you have here, I think it does lose a lot in the way of fun character progression. After the first few levels of getting the essentials, progression feels stagnant. It feels like there isn't too much improvement beyond the first point into most skills. One point into Dagger Mastery for Assassins gets you the attack speed buff... beyond that... meh.

And some things are just way out of whack, in my opinion. Monk, for example, is just way too tempting as a second class with those initial freebie stances they get. And they have some really nice passive/toggles later on too. If there were any way to put some restrictions into the really powerful stuff, you might get better balance. Like if you could not be wearing anything better than cloth armor to use those monk stances. Something along those lines at the very least. Pure monks have the restriction of course, but go ahead and try out Fighter/Monk for a couple hours and bask in the glory of uberness.

I do like what you've done though, and I definitely appreciate the effort. I'll be keeping an eye out on this mod as you work out the kinks.

I'd love to do a restriction on skills for armor, I had some ideas but is not possible as far as I know. There are sure to be a lot of balance issues at the moment, as it is just me making the mod mostly for myself and I don't have loads of time to test everything. (its a beta :P)

I'll fix the negative stat problem, I was not aware that it would stop you using items. I'll up the base stat number to 10 rather than 5 and scale the items etc accordingly.

Defensive stance and any others I spot without scaling will be fixed also. (Cheers for letting me know)

I will think on the skill progression. But without sacrificing the 'training' system I don't see how this will be possible (really expensive skills like in vanilla).

One thing I would say is I'd urge you to rethink dagger mastery. It is meant to make daggers a very viable weapon as an assassin. Daggers only do 1-2 damage per level of the item. So the extra from dagger mastery really is a lot. Especially when you start getting more skill points per level. It also means that without more than 1 point in dagger mastery, swords will very quickly be the better weapon, even without the attack speed buff. So in the early levels, it is a one point wonder, but not so much later on. I'll think about introducing the attack speed per point rather than on the first point.

Good post sir, and thanks for letting me know your thoughts.


EDIT: Fixing the obvious problems, here is a hotfix whilst I think about the balance issues you've mentioned. (barb/wild bug, defensive stance)

Vlaros
04-10-2010, 07:11 PM
It's alright, Dajaw. I understand it is a beta, and that balancing will come with time. Great work so far though.

I'd love to get into modding this game as well. I understand that I can just edit the files like a regular .txt file, but I'm a little confused as to the overall structure. Any ideas on where I could begin tinkering?

EDIT: Was just thinking that with the way you have your stat system in this mod, you could consider doing away with arbitrary class limitations and just fall back on what the stats allow. Like right now, a Mage cannot use a sword just because they aren't "trained" in it. Even with the right amount of strength, he cannot use the sword. You could change it to just allow whatever your stats can handle, including for armor too. Just a thought. I'm not sure how crazy it could get later on with gear in your mod though. I've only been trying it this last day or so.

The_Dajaw
04-11-2010, 02:21 AM
It's alright, Dajaw. I understand it is a beta, and that balancing will come with time. Great work so far though.

I'd love to get into modding this game as well. I understand that I can just edit the files like a regular .txt file, but I'm a little confused as to the overall structure. Any ideas on where I could begin tinkering?

EDIT: Was just thinking that with the way you have your stat system in this mod, you could consider doing away with arbitrary class limitations and just fall back on what the stats allow. Like right now, a Mage cannot use a sword just because they aren't "trained" in it. Even with the right amount of strength, he cannot use the sword. You could change it to just allow whatever your stats can handle, including for armor too. Just a thought. I'm not sure how crazy it could get later on with gear in your mod though. I've only been trying it this last day or so.

The text files are easy to understand, have a play around and it all will make sense soon enough, I think shadow will be releasing an SDK soon so that should help.

I did that on purpose, a lot of the inspiriation for the class system came from aD&D (Baldur's gate, Icewind...) I didnt want mages using swords, even though they may have the strength to use them.

I shall think on it. :)

Vlaros
04-11-2010, 11:21 AM
Yeah, I've been looking through the DoP SDK stuff to get an understanding of their methods.

And that's exactly what I thought of when I tried out your mod. It definitely has a more D&D-esque feeling to it. It makes the game feel like old-school Hack or Rogue to some degree too.

The only reason I mentioned the stat itemization idea is because you're basically double-penalizing to get the same effect. Your class determines your stats mostly anyway, so that should be enough to basically limit what equipment you can use. In Baldur's Gate and whatnot, you rolled for your stats and it wasn't dependent upon your class. In your mod, it is. Having that possibility to improve a stat and use untraditional equipment would be an interesting draw. Just an idea, like I said.

Overall, I think your mod makes the gameplay more fun. Combat feels a lot more deadly and interactive. I'm having quite a bit of fun playing as a pure barbarian with it. Having to "stance dance" and use reactive abilities is much more engaging than wading through with a passively powerful character... if that makes any sense. The vanilla game does have more of a feeling of character progress however. Good or bad; I'm just giving you an idea of how the game feels. I like both versions quite a bit though.

EDIT: Something to take a look at: Infinite Mana Obelisks are pretty weak considering my level 5 Mage has 1900+ mana. You might want to adjust those, seeing as how they're only 600 Mana regained over a minute.
EDIT: Immolation also doesn't seem to be scaling with points. And consider a rebalancing of its damage/mana. It costs more than Ice Storm, only affects one target, and does less damage. Either that, or Ice Storm is just too good. ;) Don't mind me, I'll just keep submitting bugs/feedback.

The_Dajaw
04-11-2010, 12:45 PM
Yeah, I've been looking through the DoP SDK stuff to get an understanding of their methods.

And that's exactly what I thought of when I tried out your mod. It definitely has a more D&D-esque feeling to it. It makes the game feel like old-school Hack or Rogue to some degree too.

The only reason I mentioned the stat itemization idea is because you're basically double-penalizing to get the same effect. Your class determines your stats mostly anyway, so that should be enough to basically limit what equipment you can use. In Baldur's Gate and whatnot, you rolled for your stats and it wasn't dependent upon your class. In your mod, it is. Having that possibility to improve a stat and use untraditional equipment would be an interesting draw. Just an idea, like I said.

Overall, I think your mod makes the gameplay more fun. Combat feels a lot more deadly and interactive. I'm having quite a bit of fun playing as a pure barbarian with it. Having to "stance dance" and use reactive abilities is much more engaging than wading through with a passively powerful character... if that makes any sense. The vanilla game does have more of a feeling of character progress however. Good or bad; I'm just giving you an idea of how the game feels. I like both versions quite a bit though.

EDIT: Something to take a look at: Infinite Mana Obelisks are pretty weak considering my level 5 Mage has 1900+ mana. You might want to adjust those, seeing as how they're only 600 Mana regained over a minute.
EDIT: Immolation also doesn't seem to be scaling with points. And consider a rebalancing of its damage/mana. It costs more than Ice Storm, only affects one target, and does less damage. Either that, or Ice Storm is just too good. ;) Don't mind me, I'll just keep submitting bugs/feedback.

Thanks!

~~ New patch 'D' ~~

I have given immolate a major buff, I think you were right about this one. It should be THE single target dot as it was meant to be now. A real boss killer :)

Infinite mana has been improved by a factor of 10. Which should quite literally mean 'infinite mana' (I have yet to find one in game so please let me know if there is still a problem)

Some monk stances have been rebalanced.

I really appreciate you giving me the detailed feedback. Just what i need at this stage.

Cheers :)

TheRani
04-11-2010, 01:14 PM
When I used this mod, it made changes to the items in my shared stash. Specifically, it weakened them. For instance, a pendant that used to increase Dex by like 12, now increases it by 1. But I still have to be level 28 to wear it. So if I remove this mod, my pendant isn't going to go back to normal, is it?

The_Dajaw
04-11-2010, 01:27 PM
When I used this mod, it made changes to the items in my shared stash. Specifically, it weakened them. For instance, a pendant that used to increase Dex by like 12, now increases it by 1. But I still have to be level 28 to wear it. So if I remove this mod, my pendant isn't going to go back to normal, is it?

If it has changed the items in the stash at all then they should go back to normal when you remove the mod. It would make no sense if they didnt, although if i'm honest its not something i've tested, I barely used the shared stash in vanilla.

TheRani
04-11-2010, 02:05 PM
I checked out the item changing thing by removing the mod, and it did put the items in the shared stash the way they were before.

This is my pure monk so far. I twinked her with a fantastic staff, and you'd think it'd make the game pretty easy, but you'd be wrong! At level 8, even with a DPS approaching 100, she's having to whack even trash mobs 3 or 4 times to make them die. And this is on Easy. Staff Shockwave is a great skill, but it doesn't take out even trash mobs, much less bosses. I mostly rely on it to make things stand still for a few seconds while I bonk their friend repeatedly over the head. Now imagine what it'd be like if she was Not twinked. Imagine her pain if she were wielding a staff with like 10 dps (which is about the best I've seen drop so far). Also, it's difficult to get my Attack rating where I'd like it to be (the only way is via that 60 point skill), so she tends to miss lots when fighting enemies on deeper levels of the dungeons. She doesn't really have what you'd call a boss killing skill.

JinLevel 8 MonkStats

Health: 101 / 126
Mana: 1517 / 1950

Attack: 113
Defense: 135
Armor: 42

Damage: 37 - 104
Dps: 84.5

Reputation Level: 2

Money: 1GP 93SP 22CP

Attributes

Strength: 5
Dexterity: 7
Vitality: 4
Intelligence: 5
Spirit: 6

Points Left: 0

Resistances

Fire Resistance: 1
Cold Resistance: 1
Poison Resistance: 4
Lightning Resistance: 1
Magic Resistance: 2

Skills

Monk Training lvl 7
Staff Mastery lvl 8
Staff Sweep lvl 1
Swift Strike lvl 3
Dodge lvl 1
Monk Parry lvl 1
Staff Shockwave lvl 1

Points Left: 1

Equipment

Agate Cloth Mantle of Substance
Rarity: Uncommon Basic Type: Cloth
Durability 17 / 17
2 armor
2 defense
+4 Max Health
+4 Poison Resistance
+5% armor
Requires armor skill: Cloth
Sell value: 24CP
Retail value: 1SP 1CP

Firm Cloth Shawl of Excitement
Rarity: Uncommon Basic Type: Cape
Durability 20 / 20
4 armor
2 defense
+1 Mana Regen
+5% armor
+30% durability
Requires skill: Cape
Sell value: 26CP
Retail value: 1SP 9CP

Ciglio's Robe
Cloth Robe
Rarity: Set Basic Type: Cloth
Durability 12 / 12
12 armor
4 defense
+5 Armor
+5 Maximum Mana
+4 Max Health
+25% Find Extra Money
+13% armor

Ciglio's Set: Ciglio's Braided Belt,
Ciglio's Robe, Ciglio's Gold Ring,
Ciglio's Silver Ring, Ciglio's Charm

With 2 items:
+250 Maximum Mana

With all 5 items:
+500 Maximum Mana

Requires armor skill: Cloth
Sell value: 1SP 6CP
Retail value: 4SP 58CP

Battlemage Gloves
Quilted Gloves
Rarity: Artifact Basic Type: Cloth
Durability 13 / 13
8 armor
4 defense
+3 Armor
+40 Maximum Mana
+10 Max Health
+1 Fire Resistance
+1 Lightning Resistance
+17% armor
Requires level 2
Requires armor skill: Cloth
Sell value: 2SP 76CP
Retail value: 14SP 35CP

Ciglio's Braided Belt
Cloth Sash
Rarity: Set Basic Type: Cloth
Durability 16 / 16
3 armor
1 defense
+2 Armor
+15 Maximum Mana
+1 Cold Resistance
+1 Magic Resistance
+13% armor

Ciglio's Set: Ciglio's Braided Belt,
Ciglio's Robe, Ciglio's Gold Ring,
Ciglio's Silver Ring, Ciglio's Charm

With 2 items:
+250 Maximum Mana

With all 5 items:
+500 Maximum Mana

Requires armor skill: Cloth
Sell value: 56CP
Retail value: 2SP 34CP

Cloth Leggings (Ego)
Rarity: Very Rare Basic Type: Cloth
Durability 13 / 13
9 armor
2 defense
Ego: +25% armor bonus
+4 Armor
+1 Magic Resistance
+4 Perception
+35% armor
Requires armor skill: Cloth
Sell value: 38CP
Retail value: 1SP 56CP

Cloth Boots of Stimulation
Rarity: Common Basic Type: Cloth
Durability 10 / 10
4 armor
3 defense
+1 Mana Regen
+3% armor
Requires armor skill: Cloth
Sell value: 26CP
Retail value: 1SP 6CP

Gizlin's Staff
Ash Staff
Rarity: Artifact Basic Type: Staff
Durability 56 / 56
Two-handed
28 to 76 Damage Speed 1.00
52.0 damage per second
+1 Strength
+205 Maximum Mana
+1 Mana Regen
+33 Perception
-22% Cast Time
+17% damage
+9 to 11 Poison Damage
Requires 1 Strength
Requires weapon skill: Staff
Sell value: 13SP 82CP
Retail value: 2GP 76SP 44CP


Fun stats

Kills: 1059
Deaths: 1
Kills Per Death: 1059

Gold Found: 69SP 87CP
Time Played: 1h 29m 56s
Max Damage Dealt: 306
Max Damage Taken: 33
Max Damage Dealt At Once: 2785
Max Health Healed: 92

Best Trap Disarmed: lvl 0

Strongest Monster Defeated: Omor (Lvl 5)
Toughest Battle Won: Omor (Lvl 5) at Lvl 5
Strongest Monster Killed By: Elite Havoc Clan Orc (Lvl 5)
Weakest Monster Killed By: Elite Havoc Clan Orc (Lvl 5)

Quests Solved: 38

Equipment Worth: 3GP 2SP 43CP
Inventory Worth: 3GP 35SP 27CP

Secrets Found: 0

Towns Saved: 3
Towns Abandoned: 0
Towns Lost: 0

Din's Curse / Soldak Entertainment (http://www.soldak.com/Dins-Curse/Overview.html)

Vlaros
04-11-2010, 02:06 PM
Well, I dunno about "infinite". My mage is level 8 now with 3000+ mana. The new 6000 mana a minute isn't anything to sneeze at, but I'll easily have that much mana by the time I'm level 20+, I think. Is there a way to make the Infinite Obelisks return percentages? You could set it to 300% (or whatever) mana/health/stamina over a minute so no matter what your maximums are, they'll be filled easily while you continue to consume your resources. I don't know what the actual variables are called, but your formula would basically be (PlayerMaxMana * 3) / 60 = Mana per second. Or simply PlayerMaxMana * 0.05 per second.

And you don't have to push out revisions every time I find something. Might go easier if you wait a day or two and lump them together. You're going to run out of alphabet real quick with me around.

The_Dajaw
04-11-2010, 03:18 PM
Well, I dunno about "infinite". My mage is level 8 now with 3000+ mana. The new 6000 mana a minute isn't anything to sneeze at, but I'll easily have that much mana by the time I'm level 20+, I think. Is there a way to make the Infinite Obelisks return percentages? You could set it to 300% (or whatever) mana/health/stamina over a minute so no matter what your maximums are, they'll be filled easily while you continue to consume your resources. I don't know what the actual variables are called, but your formula would basically be (PlayerMaxMana * 3) / 60 = Mana per second. Or simply PlayerMaxMana * 0.05 per second.

And you don't have to push out revisions every time I find something. Might go easier if you wait a day or two and lump them together. You're going to run out of alphabet real quick with me around.

Hehe...

ok, i'll change the obelisks to percentage based (I thought they were, simple mistake on my part PowerChangePERCENT rather than PowerChange!)

As for the monks taking forever to kill things... bear in mind the monster hp's are far, far higher than in vanilla and to be able to take out any mob in one hit past the first few levels is meant to be difficult.

To increase your melee output as a monk, increase your staff mastery once or twice a level. You will do more than twice the damage you'd be doing otherwise, and because staff shockwave does weapon damage, you have a good aoe as well. If you put plenty of put plenty of points in staff sweep that could arguably the better skill however as it is cheap and a very fast, spammable skill. So yeah staves are weak weapons, but Staff mastery + ki speed is a good way to catch up with those axe wielding barbarians. EDIT: Ignore what I said... I've read your character log and saw you have plenty o' staff mastery. Let me think of a solution... One thing is for sure, a level 8 staff at the very worst would be doing 8-24 damage a swing even without staff mastery, so 10dps would be impossible. You just haven't found many good staves. But I do agree that with your twinked staff monster hit points may be a bit (a lot) too high.

About the quick updates, I hate the thought of someone clicking on the thread and finding a bug when they are so easy to fix. :) This is my first mod project in many years so forgive me if I don't follow mod protocols, but often in beta stages software/mods/whatever recieve updates fast and often...

I am on an X3: Terran conflict binge at the moment, but trust me when I say the you'll know the big updates when you see them :)

Double edit: hmmm... I think a serious rethink is required. Hopefully I'll get something a bit tighter out for the next release.

TheRani
04-11-2010, 04:34 PM
A few notes about some other classes:

The bowman: If he's meant to be a bow specialist, why do you give him proficiency with every weapon? And what's with all those skills that have a range limit? Aside from that, the bowman is decent.

The ninja: Why do you let them use bows, if pretty much all their damage skills have a close range limit except for shuriken? If they want to dual-class with bowman, they'll get that ability from their other class anyway. Also, shuriken is Not worth 10 points to me unless you lose the 15 second reuse time. Why does it take that long to get another shuriken out of your pocket? I can get something out of my pocket and throw it at somebody way faster than that, and I'm not even a ninja.

The thief: The reuse time on the lure starts out too long. Jab is their only single-target damage skill that doesn't require them to be stealthed (which generally only lasts until you hit (or whiff!) against the first enemy), and it's pretty much garbage that isn't worth the mana. What usually happens is I stealth, I move in and try to do the deep wounds thing against some troublesome enemy, miss, and end up unstealthed in front of a bunch of angry enemies. So I throw a fire trap at them, setting them on fire, maybe half-killing some of them that were close to it, and then having a bunch of angry enemies that are on fire running after me. The whole being on fire thing is barely bothering them at all because they have ridiculous amounts of hp. For the next 25 seconds, I can't throw the trap again, and I can't re-stealth with all these enemies in my face. I can't use lure, because I used it a few minutes ago on another dungeon level and the ridiculous reuse time hasn't passed yet. So I end up flailing ineffectually at them with normal attacks that miss like crazy and hoping that the trap recharges before they finish killing me. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

I'm really not liking this mod so far. It's unbalanced and Nintendo Hard. It feels like it was haphazardly thrown together with no consideration as to how each class would be played, and not tested at all.

The_Dajaw
04-11-2010, 05:06 PM
A few notes about some other classes:

The bowman: If he's meant to be a bow specialist, why do you give him proficiency with every weapon? And what's with all those skills that have a range limit? Aside from that, the bowman is decent.

The ninja: Why do you let them use bows, if pretty much all their damage skills have a close range limit except for shuriken? If they want to dual-class with bowman, they'll get that ability from their other class anyway. Also, shuriken is Not worth 10 points to me unless you lose the 15 second reuse time. Why does it take that long to get another shuriken out of your pocket? I can get something out of my pocket and throw it at somebody way faster than that, and I'm not even a ninja.

The thief: The reuse time on the lure starts out too long. Jab is their only single-target damage skill that doesn't require them to be stealthed (which generally only lasts until you hit (or whiff!) against the first enemy), and it's pretty much garbage that isn't worth the mana. What usually happens is I stealth, I move in and try to do the deep wounds thing against some troublesome enemy, miss, and end up unstealthed in front of a bunch of angry enemies. So I throw a fire trap at them, setting them on fire, maybe half-killing some of them that were close to it, and then having a bunch of angry enemies that are on fire running after me. The whole being on fire thing is barely bothering them at all because they have ridiculous amounts of hp. For the next 25 seconds, I can't throw the trap again, and I can't re-stealth with all these enemies in my face. I can't use lure, because I used it a few minutes ago on another dungeon level and the ridiculous reuse time hasn't passed yet. So I end up flailing ineffectually at them with normal attacks that miss like crazy and hoping that the trap recharges before they finish killing me. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

I'm really not liking this mod so far. It's unbalanced and Nintendo Hard. It feels like it was haphazardly thrown together with no consideration as to how each class would be played, and not tested at all.

*Sheds single tear* thats alright, i'm not pretending its the second coming. I thought I may as well release it because it seemed alright to me. I started working on it as a personal project for me and my girlfriend, its not like I have a mod team and a million man hours of testing under my belt.

I hope you'll come back and try again when the balancing has improved. :P

TheRani
04-11-2010, 05:54 PM
*Sheds single tear* thats alright, i'm not pretending its the second coming. I thought I may as well release it because it seemed alright to me. I started working on it as a personal project for me and my girlfriend, its not like I have a mod team and a million man hours of testing under my belt.

I hope you'll come back and try again when the balancing has improved. :P

I really want to like this mod, and I'll certainly give it another shot after you have the classes better balanced and the monster hp less insane.

BTW, with attack accuracy at a premium because of your insistence on making the only way to raise it cost 60 points a pop, Cleave is rather awful, since it reduces the accuracy of the attack even further. Unless you're fighting enemies that are much lower level than yourself, it's actually way more efficient to give each enemy a single bonk on the head with normal attack or a single-target special attack. This is part of why my monk wasn't using Cleave. Reducing damage by 50% was the other part.

Even Whirlwind, which didn't suffer the accuracy problem, rarely put even a dent in anything. Think about it. If you can't even kill a scree in one normal hit, is being able to hit multiple screes for 1/4 of what a normal hit does really going to ever be worth the mana? If you have to hit them 4 times with Whirlwind to approximate the effect of hitting each of them once with a normal hit, why not just hit each one once with a normal hit (or better yet, with Swift Strike)? And then hit them again because they're not dead yet anyway?

ILOVEBLOOD
04-11-2010, 08:56 PM
I think your idear is epic but i need to ask you for a favor im a warlock/mage and i can never find any gear weapons or rings for me its all plate mail or leather when u update your mode can u add more mage gear? :rolleyes:

Vlaros
04-11-2010, 10:37 PM
The difficulty is about what I prefer. "Nintendo Hard" is, I suppose, my speed after all. Good thing it isn't "Retro-Arcade Hard".

First thing I do when I make a new character with this mod is drink those free potions. That'll give you a bit of a cushion to get a couple levels under your belt.

Douweeh
04-13-2010, 05:28 AM
Looks great... but doesn't work with the demo, damn :p
Guess I'll have to wait until I have money for the full version before I try this out.

efr33t
04-27-2010, 03:51 PM
Just wanted to let you know I'm having fun with a level 8 bowmaster/thief. With 24 ranks of bowmastery and stealth I've got 883 dps and can still 1-hit kill almost anything (esp. with such a high crit rate). Add in multi-shot and it becomes somewhat unfair, but then again I do die quite easily if not paying attention :)

graffen69
04-28-2010, 09:20 AM
Curious about this mod but i donīt want it to interfere with my regular DC Game shared stash. Is there a way to play this mod without doing so? Like having 2 different installements of DC? There are 2 users on my computer (used to play Diablo 2 with 2 games simultaneously), would that help?

Shadow
04-28-2010, 09:47 AM
Curious about this mod but i donīt want it to interfere with my regular DC Game shared stash. Is there a way to play this mod without doing so? Like having 2 different installements of DC? There are 2 users on my computer (used to play Diablo 2 with 2 games simultaneously), would that help?

Yeah, I believe you can do that. Have 2 different installs, one for mods and one normal and a different user for each one.

graffen69
04-28-2010, 11:10 AM
Great, thx for the fast reply
:)

Marcos12Sannin
05-28-2011, 09:54 PM
Add Its Mod Deeper Din's 0.1d in Depths of Peril?

Orrus
05-29-2011, 05:53 PM
Looks like an awesome mod! I'll have to try it! :)