PDA

View Full Version : Reflections on the Rogue


Denubis
11-02-2007, 07:05 PM
Well, since there was some discussion on the boards, I rolled myself a rogue. (And then about 10 levels later, rolled a mage.)

Some observations: While rogues have nice crowd debuffs and subscribe to the same build strategy as the priest and the rogue (choose at most 2 skills, and just max them) a rogue is both gear dependent and can miss. While I've got a level 12 rogue in my NPCs as a mage with a 45 DPS, my frost bolt does that at range, spammable, and never misses. (It's also very humorous when you just spam frost bolts/holy bolts at things that are way off the minimap. All confirmation you have of killing them is occasional XP messages. )

This, by the way, is not a call for hitting casters with a nerfbat. Perhaps allowing rogues to dualwield would go a long way to upping their DPS.

swissler
12-30-2007, 09:15 PM
I have a rogue named Arwen (Level 23, stats posted on the character thread). I also felt pretty weak at first, almost like I was playing a "bad warrior" for about 15 levels or so.

But I stuck with her, and started figuring out how rogues work:

Stealth: Stealth is amazing. With even 1 point, you can sneak through areas grabbing chests and quest items without having to fight any of the monsters. Once you start investing heavily in the skill, the 5 second extension of your "stealth bonuses" after being spotted lets you rip small packs of enemies to shreds. You can even make this work on bosses (if you need it) by making a gate to home right next to you. Every 5 seconds jump in the gate, restealth, then jump back into the fight.

Dagger Mastery: 10% extra damage for 4 skill points, yes please. That's the equivalent about about 12 points of strength just from the bonus damage alone. You also get some extra attack power and crit thrown in for fun. It does restrict your weapon use to daggers only, but it's worth it.

Criticals: Criticals are very important to a rogue, for two main reasons. First, every critical grants you 3 momentum. Second, every critical allows for the use of the Critical Strike skill, which is a free attack for 60% extra damage even at level 1. It only has a 1 second reuse time, which means it's almost always ready to go when you get a crit. How do you get criticals? Intellect! Probably tied for Dex in importance for my character, a focus on Intellect (which grants base crit %) dramatically increases the criticals you get (thanks to all those rogue skills with large crit bonuses built in).

Smoke Screen: Great 1 point wonder for crowd control. When you see yourself getting mobbed, use Smoke Screen and watch most of the enemies stand there stupidly for 15 seconds. Since the freeze duration isn't level based, you can keep this at 1 point

Momentum Generation: Slice, Rupture, Precise Strike, and Critical Strike are all extra, free attacks that generate momentum for you (which you then use on something like Lethal Strike/Death Blow to deal even more damage). Slice is a constant, reliable source of momentum and is worth investing points into. Rupture's use can't be controlled, so for now I just have 1 point in there to use as my stealth opener + random proc chances from enemy block/parry/deflect. Precise Strike I don't have yet, because on paper it has even less opportunities to fire than Rupture. Critical Strike can fire every time you critical, which means investing in critical chance will pay off here. Probably worth investing alot of points here at high levels, when your critical strike % really starts to get crazy.

Ok, this is getting pretty long. But I wanted to share what I knew because it seems that a lot of people give up on rogues before they really have a chance to shine. Also, something I'm still trying to figure out is a good survivability strategy. Most of my focus has been on dealing damage, and as a result I kill quickly but also have problems staying alive (especially against uniques/bosses).

-swissler

StealthBunny
01-03-2008, 04:47 PM
I play a rogue, too, and she's up to lvl 40. I counter the staying-alive problem by traveling with a heavy brute of a warrior and toss him at the monsters while I stealth.

Works pretty well. He gets beat up (which is what he is paid to do) and I collect the pretties afterwards.

FloodSpectre
01-12-2008, 05:22 PM
I fully agree with Swissler's comments on the rogue. Smoke Screen is a godsend ! However, having a good damage-over-time effect seems to be vital to dropping bosses and regenerating enemies. In my case, I'm mostly neglecting it because my Warrior recruit has a fairly high level Gut skill, which couples with the Deep Wounds I inflict at times pretty well.

Areli
01-12-2008, 11:46 PM
Here's my rundown on the skills off the top of my head. These are what I personally use and my own opinions of them as I developed my character.

I don't remember all the exact details at the moment, but after 50 or 51 levels as a Rogue, the only skills I find myself using are:
Stealth (level 9 i think, enough for +200% damage)
Slice (level 10 or 11, enough for +100% damage - like a free crit every 3 seconds)
Critical Strike (around level 3 right now, eventually add more)
Smoke Screen (1 point for crowd control)
Charged Strike (1 point for speed debuff when I need to run)
Dagger Mastery (somewhere between level 11 and 13 right now)
Also a few levels of dodge, evade, deflection and the Armor Piercing skill.

I used the Viper Venom skill up through the late teens and it was amazing, then I felt that it could no longer compete. It was great to go into a group of mobs, pop each one with Venom, then run back while they all died in a few seconds. I don't feel like it scaled up enough to be of use.

I used Feint for a while and may add it back. It's useful to set up a critical strike when you're not getting one naturally. Even so, with high Int. and Dagger Mastery, you should get critical hits fairly often.

I may experiment with Rupture and Precise Strike some more, although I feel like those in addition to Slice and Crit Strike make too many melee skills to keep up with.

I don't feel like Dazzle scales up enough to be of use.

Daze may have some use in its being a shorter range crowd control. One point could possibly serve as a good backup for when Smoke Screen is not available or gets broken too soon.

I don't feel like any of the Concentration skills (Speed, Poison, Blur) are worth much investment simply due to their being 30 seconds in length with 4 minutes until reuse. They may be good to pop one on for an extra tough boss battle, however I see them as skills I would not use enough to invest in.

I think the Rogue gets enough Dexterity to not have a problem with Attack rating, thus making Precision (+attack percentage) and the other skill that is +Dex unnecessary. Some Rogues may need this; especially if they use swords thus making it likely that they'll have more Str. than Dex.

Similarly, I don't feel like the Deadly Aim skill (+crit %) is worth much since those points are better spent in Dagger Mastery giving +crit and much more.

I believe that the trap disarming skill would be more useful if it was a fixed percent rather than a level-based percent. Something like a 5% chance to disarm traps per skill level would make it more appealing and worth some points. As it is now, the diminishing returns that it gives with each increased character level make it too much of a commitment to keep leveling up.

I had a NPC rogue hit me with a high level caltrops once and got slowed by at least a couple hundred percent if I remember - it was awful trying to move around. I though it was a very valuable skill then, and may consider giving it some points to use when I need to run away (instead of Charged Strike). I'll look into the details of each some more.


That's all for now. I'm sure other Rogues have played rather differently than I have and I look forward to their insight.

swissler
01-13-2008, 07:34 AM
Great comments, guys. I too used Viper Venom until it started costing too many points to keep it's damage competitive. Now that I'm hitting 40 or so, I've grown on a couple other unpopular skills:

Caltrops at Level 8 is amazing. 70% move reduction, large area, 0 momentum cost, and lasts as long as it's cooldown time. Having that skill combined with smokescreen makes getting mobbed a thing of the past.

Concentration: Blur at Level 10 (+200% defense) is equally amazing. Combine that with a Hardiness buff and you can easily deal with any boss that doesn't have Thorns.

I used to have tons of survivability problems, but those two skills (along with finding a Hardiness priest for my covenant) fixed that completely.

-swissler

weelillad
01-17-2008, 01:30 PM
I seem to be doing something wrong, and I hope someone can give me some advice. Because my recruit rogue is the same level as I am, yet her damage is way way higher than mine. It makes me wonder if I'm too weak for my level. I'm including screenshots of my recruit rogue, plus our weapons, and also my own stats.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

http://lh3.google.com/weelillad/R4-QDH1fvSI/AAAAAAAADFA/7i1x6OWCPk4/s400/Arnbjorg.png

http://lh4.google.com/weelillad/R4-QDX1fvTI/AAAAAAAADFI/o_1OS86QwYA/s400/Weapons.png

Hjalmfrid
Level 21 Amateur Rogue
Stats

Health: 300 / 300
Momentum: 0 / 100

Attack: 619
Defense: 450
Armor: 235

Damage: 15 - 34
DPS: 30.6

Money: 7GP 26SP 7CP

Attributes

Strength: 42
Dexterity: 89
Vitality: 53
Intelligence: 39
Spirit: 21

Attribute points left: 0

Resistances

Fire Resistance: 45
Cold Resistance: 2
Poison Resistance: 36
Lightning Resistance: 2
Magic Resistance: 2

Skills

Attack lvl 1
Slice lvl 5
Charged Strike lvl 1
Gouge lvl 5
Stealth lvl 3
Smoke Screen lvl 1
Concentration: Poison lvl 2
Dagger mastery lvl 3
Quickness lvl 1
Amateur lvl 1

Skill points left: 2

Equipment

Leather Cap
Rarity: Rare Basic Type: Leather
31 armor
+7 Strength
+5 Spirit
+52% armor
Requires level 15
Requires armor skill: Leather
Sell value: 2SP 22CP
Retail value: 10SP 74CP

Sparkling Necklace of Energy
Rarity: Uncommon
+13 Maximum Mana/Faith
+10 Light Intensity
Requires level 12
Sell value: 54CP
Retail value: 2SP 26CP

Studded Leather Shoulders of Fortification
Rarity: Common Basic Type: Leather
30 armor
+10 Armor
Requires level 20
Requires armor skill: Leather
Sell value: 1SP 14CP
Retail value: 4SP 98CP

Wool Shawl
Rarity: Rare
35 armor
+4 Spirit
+14 Armor
+33% armor
Requires level 12
Requires skill: Cape
Sell value: 1SP 76CP
Retail value: 8SP 13CP

Garnet Studded Leather Vest of Hoarding
Rarity: Uncommon Basic Type: Leather
36 armor
+10 Fire Resistance
+6% Find Items Chance
Requires level 17
Requires armor skill: Leather
Sell value: 1SP 99CP
Retail value: 9SP 39CP

Tover's Bracers
Buckskin Bracers
Rarity: Set Basic Type: Leather
12 armor
+3 Dexterity
+82 Attack
+5 Fire Resistance
+53% armor

Tover's Set: Tover's Dirk,
Tover's Vest, Tover's Leggings,
Tover's Boots, Tover's Bracers

With 3 items:
+5 Defense
+10% Magic Find Chance

With all 5 items:
+10 Defense
+20% Magic Find Chance

Requires level 16
Requires armor skill: Leather
Sell value: 92CP
Retail value: 3SP 93CP

Studded Leather Gloves
Rarity: Very Rare Basic Type: Leather
16 armor
+4 Max Health
+10 Poison Resistance
+42% Find Extra Money
+11% Magic Find Chance
Requires level 16
Requires armor skill: Leather
Sell value: 1SP 43CP
Retail value: 6SP 41CP

Hard Leather Belt of Proficiency
Rarity: Common Basic Type: Leather
9 armor
+10 Dexterity
Requires level 14
Requires armor skill: Leather
Sell value: 79CP
Retail value: 3SP 38CP

Dakar
Studded Leather Leggings
Rarity: Unique Basic Type: Leather
45 armor
+6 Vitality
+8 Intelligence
+12 Poison Resistance
+8% Find Items Chance
+75% armor
Requires level 17
Requires armor skill: Leather
Sell value: 3SP 64CP
Retail value: 23SP 21CP

Stalwart Studded Leather Boots
Rarity: Common Basic Type: Leather
21 armor
+29% armor
Requires level 16
Requires armor skill: Leather
Sell value: 69CP
Retail value: 2SP 90CP

Ring of Brawn
Rarity: Common
+6 Strength
Requires level 12
Sell value: 41CP
Retail value: 1SP 69CP

Ring of Hoarding
Rarity: Common
+6% Find Items Chance
Requires level 7
Sell value: 4CP
Retail value: 19CP

Jewelry
Rarity: Rare
+4 Dexterity
+17 Fire Resistance
Requires level 6
Sell value: 1SP 6CP
Retail value: 4SP 58CP

Garnet Jewelry of Dexterity
Rarity: Uncommon
+1 Dexterity
+11 Fire Resistance
Requires level 13
Sell value: 45CP
Retail value: 1SP 88CP

Shadow Fang
Dagger
Rarity: Unique Basic Type: Dagger
9 to 19 Damage Speed 0.80
17.5 damage per second
+10 Attack
+12 Poison Resistance
+5% Find Items Chance
+0 to 2 Cold Damage
+1 to 3 Poison Damage
Requires 56 Dexterity
Requires weapon skill: Dagger
Sell value: 2SP 20CP
Retail value: 10SP 63CP


Fun stats

Kills: 2249
Deaths: 58
Kills Per Death: 38

Gold Found: 1GP 28SP 28CP
Time Played: 15h 51m 12s
Max Damage Dealt: 82
Max Damage Taken: 418
Max Damage Dealt At Once: 275
Max Health Healed: 0

Best Trap Disarmed: lvl 11

Strongest Monster Defeated: Haunt (Lvl 21)
Toughest Battle Won: Curse (Lvl 14) at Lvl 15
Strongest Monster Killed By: Torak (Lvl 21)
Weakest Monster Killed By: Mire (Lvl 9)

Quests Solved: 161
Raids Offensive Won: 3 of 4
Raids Defensive Won: 0 of 0
Destroyed By Monsters: 0

Equipment worth: 94SP 30CP
Inventory worth: 3GP 38SP 13CP

Secrets Found: 10

Worlds Conquered: 2
Worlds Ally Win: 0
Worlds Abandoned: 1
Worlds Lost: 0

Depths of Peril / Soldak Entertainment (http://www.soldak.com)

Shadow
01-17-2008, 02:36 PM
Actually in this case, I would guess that your recruit's damage and DPS stats are very misleading. Your recruit has the stealth skill which gives a really large bonus to damage while it is in effect. Your recruit was probably stealthed when you looked at her stats. If you pause in the middle of a battle after the effect has worn off, her stats should be much lower.

SamMcMackin
01-17-2008, 03:39 PM
while we are on this topic of dps for recruits, Shadow, why don't recruits do more dmg with more str? The only thing that really changes dps is attack speed of the weapon.

FloodSpectre
01-17-2008, 07:15 PM
I've noticed my recruits almost always do more damage than I do and have much higher stats as well. Not sure if that's intentional though, or maybe they all have a hidden weapon mastery skill... In fact, I've actually noticed that every one of my Warrior and Rogue recruits does more damage with a dagger than any other type of weapon, even if that other weapon has a higher DPS. So that's a bit weird.

Delve
01-18-2008, 11:07 AM
Maybe you're noticing an increase in critical hits do to a higher speed factor?

More hits per second (HiPS :) ) means more chances to score a crit, averaging out to more criticals overall. At least, that's my general assumption anytime I see a system like this. Which usually leads me to completely eschew 2-handers in favor of faster wepons, though DoP seems to be balanced better than that.

ShaggyMoose
01-18-2008, 11:44 AM
Here's my rundown on the skills off the top of my head. I used the Viper Venom skill up through the late teens and it was amazing, then I felt that it could no longer compete. It was great to go into a group of mobs, pop each one with Venom, then run back while they all died in a few seconds. I don't feel like it scaled up enough to be of use.
This is the same as the warrior skill "gut". It was amazingly useful at lower levels, but by level 20 or so its just wasted points. It could stand to be nerfed a little at lower levels and made much more useful at 20+.

Kotli
05-11-2008, 06:48 AM
I expect recruits most likely have a minimum damage per hit based of there level from what i am reading here, and therefore daggers have the highest DPS when equipted.

(name here)
05-22-2008, 08:40 PM
yeah, the only things that scale right are the percentage boosters. bash was working perfectly until i traded for smash and it's crushing blow boost.

Silb
06-17-2008, 11:01 PM
Hi, I got a rogue to about level 50 and I think I have a really efficient gameplan to share, also a question for more experienced players.

Efficient gameplan : pick a rogue with stealth as your companion recruit. It is all kinds of convenient, and racks up the XP. Allow me to explain.

Even at level 30, your companion rogue will probably have 5-6 in stealth ensuring about triple damage for 5 seconds, and so should you. Note that he already has stupidly high dps from recycling your used daggers (since they are somewhat overpowered for recruits, also rogue recruits have very high dexterity so equipping is not an issue). Since level 45 my companion routinely does 1000+ damage on criticals.

At this rate you easily kill 4-5 monsters 10+ levels above you in less than 5 seconds, and if anyone else is around, it's time for smoke bomb, then attack the same target as your recruit until everyone is dead. Then, stealth again. So, invisible -> 8 second attack -> invisible again amidst a field of corpses covered in smoke. It feels pretty roguish.

It's also very efficient. I doubt any other class/recruit combination trashes mobs that fast. But that's only half of the deal. The other half is that to beat higher-level covenants, the game comes down to completing quests very fast, and in addition to the aforementioned, who can complete quests faster than two guys who can run around freely while stealthed? Nobody, that's who :) . You can pick up quest items and locate uniques scheduled for killing without being slowed down by mobs. All precise, lightning-fast, surgical operations. Possibly one of the most efficient combinations in the game, and certainly a fun one to play.

Question: has anyone experimented with evade, dodge and deflection? I just have no idea how useful they are.

iclamp
06-23-2008, 08:32 AM
I found this with my Rogue too- and it eventually lead to me stopping playing as a Rogue character. It seemed a bit pointless when my Rogue NPC companion was doing twice the amount of damage as me!

I guess companions can (auto)manage their momentum and rage- dependant skills faster than we can, but it still can't explain the huge increase- particularly in the case of the Rogue.

I also notice the crazy dagger- dependancy too (dps inexplicably higher with this type), particularly with companion warriors who come ready-equipped with daggers, despite their being no dagger-specialisation skill on the warrior tree at all. Is DPS being calc'd correctly?

Any advice appreciated
Iain

(name here)
06-23-2008, 05:38 PM
I guess companions can (auto)manage their momentum and rage- dependant skills faster than we can, but it still can't explain the huge increase- particularly in the case of the Rogue.

Recruits have hidden bonuses to make up for their shortage of items.

I also notice the crazy dagger- dependancy too (dps inexplicably higher with this type), particularly with companion warriors who come ready-equipped with daggers, despite their being no dagger-specialisation skill on the warrior tree at all. Is DPS being calc'd correctly?

Any advice appreciated
Iain

any active buffs effect DPS, and stealth gives a massive damage boost.

Shadow
06-24-2008, 12:00 PM
Usually when this happens it's because the rogue recruit has stealth and each time you look at the rogue recruit the stealth effect is on which boosts her damage by a ton. Pause the game in the middle of a fight and check her damage to see what it really is.

Now if she doesn't have the stealth skill obviously it is something else.

sss4r
07-17-2008, 02:16 PM
This, by the way, is not a call for hitting casters with a nerfbat. Perhaps allowing rogues to dualwield would go a long way to upping their DPS.

My context: lvl 57 mage, and all my recruits are between lvls 55 and 70. A lvl 70 warrior has a DPS of 280, while a lvl 59 rogue has a DPS of 330. I've equipped them with the best weapons I can find. An artifact dagger that does 69 DPS and a speed of .8 does wonders. And when the rogue casts a spell (sorry, can't remember which), her DPS jumps to around 450. I thought the rogue was unimportant but I like to party with her more than anyone!

To me, the priest seems like the weakest link, but I like to keep one in my covenant for the blessing that gives me +150 vitality :)

Is there a staff with a weapon speed less than 2.0? Just curious.

Delve
07-17-2008, 02:22 PM
NPC priests feel weak to me, aside from Hardiness buff. However, as a PC priests are disgustingly hard to actually kill. Not much in the damage category, but the healing is to live for.

DeathKnight1728
10-13-2009, 09:47 AM
I have a quick question for someone that is experienced with a rogue. Is Gouge from the deception skill worth it?

I read that it gives:

-30 to enemy attack
-30 to enemy defense

and 10% critical for 5 seconds.

My question is, is gouge a good skill? I read somewhere that its not bad. My other question is is the 10% critical go to you or does the enemy suffer a better chance for others to critical on it?

Shadow
10-13-2009, 11:15 AM
The critical chance comes from a debuff on the enemy, so it would help anyone attacking them.

DeathKnight1728
10-14-2009, 05:15 PM
Thanks for the info! :)

I've been using the gouge skill alot. It really does wonders when raiding as it lasts longer the more points in it and my whole party gets the effect of being able to hit them better.

I use slice as my momentum charger. 2 points at most. Maybe 3.

-1 point into stealth.
-I'm gonna max out lethal blow as my main finishing move.
-I will max out gouge as well.
-The rest of my points might as well go into dagger mastery and the dodge/evade/deflection skills.

I have 1 more question. Is armor piercing, from the concentration skills (which costs 6 points) worth it? Does it give the enemy less damage reduction or is that how it works?

Oh yeah, and i've been putting a lot of points into dexterity, then shifting from vitality and intelligence. Should i put any points into strength? I haven't put any, because i feel that strength has almost no benefit for a rogue. I mean what attribute really impacts a rogues damage? Is it dexterity?

Sorry about all the questions, just figuring out how rogues work. They are a lot more difficult to use than i thought...

Shadow
10-14-2009, 06:52 PM
I have 1 more question. Is armor piercing, from the concentration skills (which costs 6 points) worth it? Does it give the enemy less damage reduction or is that how it works?

Basically how it works is every point of armor piercing is one less point of armor the enemy has when you attack them in melee.

Oh yeah, and i've been putting a lot of points into dexterity, then shifting from vitality and intelligence. Should i put any points into strength? I haven't put any, because i feel that strength has almost no benefit for a rogue. I mean what attribute really impacts a rogues damage? Is it dexterity?

Strength does effect their damage. Dexterity effects their chance to hit and avoid being hit. This is true of all of the classes. The difference is that rogues get much better stats per point of dexterity than the other classes.