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interesting
01-04-2013, 09:56 AM
1. The gameplay. It feels like Depths of Peril or Dins Curse. It doesnt feel like flying a ship in 0 gravity space.

2. Ship Speed Cap. A cap prevents me from specializing in speed to reach meaningful speed. The current arbitrary speed cap feels too slow.

3. Minimap. Completelly worthless, an afterthought of any minimap design I have ever seen.

4. Radar. You cant notice it and its not worth investing on it even if you could.
Everything should be on radar. One should navigate just looking through the radar. Radar should provide information of things dozens of seconds before I can physically reach them, instead of "oh, a dot in the minimap and right after, there the ship is". Thats an afterthought of radar design.

5. Exploration is a shore due to the combination of slow ship speed, lack of data on minimap/sector map/quests/objects/subjects and totally wortheless radar.

6. Fog of war serves no purpose, other than uncovering the planets and the location of stargates and jumpgates. That information I should get from radar/diplomacy/rumors.
Nobody is stupid to get in the middle of dozens of enemy ships, because "they have to explore manually" Yeah, right.

7. Lack of proper ship controls with keyboard and lack of proper ship aim with mouse.
The gameplay shouldnt be about pressing 1,2,3,4,5,6.
Why waste the entire genre with left click or keyboard to move and 1,2,3,4 to use skills/attack, when you could have kept keyboard for mobility/defense and mouse for aim/offense.

The ship turn speed, the lack of lateral/forward thrusters. There is no player skill, there is no dog fighting. The gameplay should have been arcade like. The way it is, is boring. Its a waste.

I would get rid of click to move, add more fluidity and mobility to the ship, remove the autoaim from the player and the enemies, add proper balistics/aiming simulation so that the player can actually avoid shots by maneuvering the ship. Allow players to shoot in the direction the mouse is aiming and if the projectile finds an enemy, then its a hit. Any variables from stats apply to the degree of damage done.

Click here, wait, oh the ship is tuuuuuurning... click there, wait... Its a shore. Totally not fun gameplay.

What Drop Operative has that its fun is the roguelikish randomization, itemization and the unique organic world with many layers of cause and effect.

The Diplomacy/AI Strategy aspect is ok, but underused. The player is not properly informed of news, changes, prices, inter relations of things. Everything is simulated alright, but its wasted because the player is not aware of its depth.

If player does a mission, its much more gratifiying if he knows what the situation is before, and how the situation should be improved and why its important, and what effects will it have and so and so. So that player can derive meaningfulness from their own choices and actions.


Another problem. It feels like a single player game. When I play proper sandbox games, they dont feel like single player games. When I play X Universe, or Space Rangers, it doesnt feel like a single player game. Because in those games there are dozen of "Drox Operatives" doing their own thing.

If you added proper AI for non player Drox Operatives, it would multiply the organicity aspect of the game many times, because it would interrelate with everything.

The player feels too lonely and the player feels like the begotten hero of the world. Its only cool to feel the hero when its hard to become one and you work your ass to be the hero. As it stand, from the start to finish the world depends on the player. The world should be designed so that initially the % weight of the player in the world should have a range, from very small to a decent amount. So that the player is insignificant, but if he picks his shot and attacks a specific cargo ship/diplomat at a crucial moment he actually had a heavy % weight on the outcome of something greater than he is, like an alliance/war.



The main problem, however is that the actual gameplay sucks. DIns CUrse, Depths of Peril had the problem of animation, lack of fluidity, etc, but then I thought "ok, now that he is making a space game, he can bypass those limitations and make something with good gameplay, because certainly he wont make the same gameplay, because one game is on land, another is in space and..."

And then we got the same gameplay. A ship on rails, can only go forward or turn and very slowly at that, with no inertia. No aiming. No strafing. What the fricking point of making a space game.

YOu didnt even added proper trading. Buy stuff in one spot, sell it in another. Profit. Thats the basic expectancy for a game on space.

Its ok that the player cant colonize, own, manage, build, etc. Its beyond the scope of the game. BUT TRADING?

All I see was copy pasted stuff from dins curse and depths of peril. THINGS THAT DIDNT MAKE ANY SENSE IN A SPACE GAME.

THings that made sense are missing.

Its fun to aim your own shots and miss and hit and feel responsible and get entertained with your own skill. Here we have what, the explosive barrel. Not enough, the mouse steering and its buttons should be all aiming and shooting and not be bound to movement.

Its fun to strafe shots as well, but that only if you had proper projectiles being projectiles and people having agile enough ships to actually avoid being hit. moving left, right, forward, backwards, faster, slower and so on.

EVEN A TURTLE IS MORE AGILE THAN SHIPS ON THIS GAME.

Then we have a huge fail on the exploration aspect, and presentation thereoff, due to the shore that the gameplay is, and how badly thought out is the minimap, radar, map. A pilot of the level of a Drop Operative should have much more information available to him.

The current pace of exploring, and traveling its not fun.

Trading its not fun either. Going physically from place to place? We did that in the middle ages. In space age, information gets there before we physically have to. Its an unecessary shore to go visit each planet to check the few items they have. A freaking planet has few items.

Its not worth the seconds it takes to go from place to place to check. Its not even worth the "50% movement debuff" of "gravitational pull" shore that is applied to the player.

Few other problems.

Old problem your games have. Each world is not connected. You have to connect each world. We have told you before in Dins/Depths of Peril.

One problem I see now on the design is the scaling.

Kill level 1 mobs, for level 1 quest to get level 1 reward, repeat until you reach level 2, then do the same again for level 2.

There is no point for that scaling design in games anymore, not even for multiplayer games.

If I were to play the game, the least I would do is remove the blatantly artificial scaling, by starting a character at level 75 or so. Thats only so that I can bypass all the cons associated with it.

Sumary.
Im very disappointed. My expectation was "Steven is doing a Space Game? He cant fail now, because the gameplay will be totally different!"

YOU ABSTRACTED THE GAMEPLAY ASPECT OF A SPACE GAME OUT OF IT!

CautiousChaos
01-04-2013, 10:47 AM
Well thought out. I'm disappointed, too. For many of the same reasons, though I'm also very flexible on others.

Drox feeling like Din's Curse in space continues to be difficult to accept. The lethargy of my ships is problematic. And the questing aspect, where I take a question that takes 20 minutes to complete trying to find X, is awful.

I like some aspects of combat. I don't like the fog of war - it's just not interesting. Especially once you get out of the "circle" that is your sector. It just feels honeycombed and awkward.

I still play here and there looking for that compulsion to really get into it comes on.

-cc

droxop55
01-04-2013, 12:18 PM
The above posts are utterly silly.

Let me boil down this thread:

Why doesnt this game play like ________, because all games of this genre should have ______, and therefore you need to add ______ because _____ has had it for ______. WHY YOU NO MAKE GAME LIKE OTHER GAME!??!!?

Roswitha
01-04-2013, 03:19 PM
Clicking to move is one of the least convenient ways to travel. Check out http://www.stephenhornback.com/id98.html (http://www.stephenhornback.com/id98.html.) for a list of other options.

We really need a tooltip or something that mentions these possibilities.

Valgor
01-04-2013, 03:34 PM
No, it should be the default method of movement.

CautiousChaos
01-06-2013, 12:47 AM
I don't think you understand, no offense. Many of the comparisons are predicated on how heavily Drox lies upon Depths+Dins+Kivis and how that influences the opinions of Drox. If that makes you giggle, okay then. Soldak produces innovative and niche titles. That can get a little lost on some people. So let's help the developer by encouraging ideas that open the discussion of conventions and best practices that lead to a larger install base. I'd like Soldak to be with us for a long time to come.

-cc



The above posts are utterly silly.

Let me boil down this thread:

lancefighter
01-06-2013, 06:08 AM
Coming from someone who has had absolutely no experience with soldak's titles outside of Drox, I could agree there are some issues. I would like to take a moment to discuss my feelings on the particular issues mentioned here.

1: You mention "gameplay". Unfortunately, that is a very broad topic. I would disagree that it doesnt feel like flying a spaceship, however, on the grounds of previous games of the genre - EV:N being I assume a main inspiration. Transcendence is also one that comes to mind.
I can not comment on the game feeling like other Soldak titles, because of reasons I mentioned above.

2: Speed Cap is a fairly interesting question, in my mind. There are of course two ways to deal with this - Do we want to let the player stack thrusters and achieve absolutely silly speeds? I personally do not actually see why not. However on the subject of the current cap, there are a few issues. I have found that it is typically somewhat easy to maintain a 200 speed ship using a single engine. Was this by design? I dont know. Should this be possible? I dont believe so.

This also goes hand in hand with other things happening in the game - Should the player be allowed to go faster than mobs? I am of the opinion yes, with the caveat that any 'special' mob with the appropriate 'speed' flag should outpace any human ship.

Overall I feel like the player speed cap could be raised to 300, and nothing else changed, and I would likely be fairly content.

3/4: These two I feel SHOULD go together. The minimap should, I would imagine, be more useful if I have radar. Currently however, both of them are relatively useless. Radar allegedly changes the distance at which things appear.. Well, perhaps I could be able to zoom out a bit more, and more things show up? Might radar possibly improve the distance at which I can see stellar objects? (gates, planets, wormholes) I dont know what the 'correct' answer is, but I feel I can pose possibilities.

5: This is also somewhat part of 3/4, and an extension of two, as you mention yourself. A fast ship with radar modules should be able to scout an entire system quickly, and probably avoid mobs. As it stands, this is impossible due to three things - Lack of speed, Lack of useful radar, and overall mobs being very populous. Another argument for another day however.

6: Fog of war always serves a purpose. Limited information is fairly important in games.In this case, I would say that certain items do not need to be hidden by fog - Planets, for example. To say that 'fog of war is bad' sounds poorly thought out.

7: And finally we get to the core of the problem. I saw a thread earlier about a ship design that seemed to literally sit there and wait for his macro to kill everything. Should that be a particularly valid mode of play? I dont really see why not, honestly. Beams have the advantage of aiming themselves, and always hit, with a tradeoff of straight dps loss over range.

However, I can see where you are coming from. Kinetic weapons in particular feel lackluster, for a few reasons. Primarily, they are automatically aimed. This is an issue because the game somehow cannot hit a ship travelling parallel to me at near max range. There is no relative moment between the two ships, yet it is impossible to hit one another. Secondly, they tend to get blocked by missile swarms. Despite this, I feel like they are still the best weapon system overall - Good, fairly consistent damage, however tends to lose accuracy in larger fights.

Allowing me to manually aim my kinetic weapons would change things slightly. Assuming proper controls were set up for it (ie, I could fire all kinetic weapons at the same time by pressing mouse2), it would likely be overall good for dps. It would give me a less frustrating way to deal with monsters flagged with 'fast'.

Along with that I would probably like to rescale monsters slightly (ie, less monsters, but stronger on average) to make things seem a lot less of a mess in larger fights.

I feel like beyond your initial 7 points, your entire post fell apart into some sort of longwinded rant - So I will mostly ignore it.

Valgor
01-06-2013, 01:33 PM
[...] Do we want to let the player stack thrusters and achieve absolutely silly speeds? I personally do not actually see why not. [...] Should the player be allowed to go faster than mobs?
I am of the opinion yes, with the caveat that any 'special' mob with the appropriate 'speed' flag should outpace any human ship. [...]

Have you already seen any of these "special mobs" ? There are some that move so fast, the game itself is no longer able to keep up with their movement. They literally "jump" across the screen,
and it's nigh impossible to hit them with anything. If you apply this kind of speed to a player's ship, the game might just become a jerky, unplayable mess for them.

lancefighter
01-06-2013, 04:23 PM
Have you already seen any of these "special mobs" ? There are some that move so fast, the game itself is no longer able to keep up with their movement. They literally "jump" across the screen,
and it's nigh impossible to hit them with anything. If you apply this kind of speed to a player's ship, the game might just become a jerky, unplayable mess for them.

Its interesting you mention this - My primary mode of play has been through multiplayer, as a client. I actually get a lot of jerky barely playable messes when lots of stuff is on the screen at once (this is an issue for fighters, lots of missiles, and in general lots of mobs).

Yes, I have encountered fast enemies. They probably honestly could be a bit slower. I am not sure what their speed is currently, but I am pretty sure it is faster than 300.

However, if the main issue is technical, can the engine not be 'fixed'? Is it not possible to make the game play smoothly at these speeds?

gogis
01-07-2013, 05:11 AM
However, I can see where you are coming from. Kinetic weapons in particular feel lackluster, for a few reasons. Primarily, they are automatically aimed. This is an issue because the game somehow cannot hit a ship travelling parallel to me at near max range. There is no relative moment between the two ships, yet it is impossible to hit one another. Secondly, they tend to get blocked by missile swarms. Despite this, I feel like they are still the best weapon system overall - Good, fairly consistent damage, however tends to lose accuracy in larger fights.


I guess you never played past 30, because with introduction of leechers only beam weapons remains as only variant. Which is silly, imo

Valgor
01-07-2013, 06:50 AM
One could always use a redirecter instead.

Kinetic weapons require quite a bit of skill to use effectively since they stopped homing in on their targets,
that's why I find it quite amusing whenever someone says dogfighting in Drox is as easy as flying circles and spamming the '1' key.
Really, there's a lot more to combat in this game than in Din's Curse where one just had to walk up to something and whack it (or spam Chain Lightning/Frost Nova/Fireball as a mage).

lancefighter
01-07-2013, 07:00 AM
Redirectors are ok. I got a harvester and havent really had energy problems..

And its odd, I already fly around in circles and spam 1. *shrug*

I wouldnt really say they require 'quite a bit' of skill, particularly when the game doesnt want you to hit targets anyway. (seriously, there are issues when your ship cant hit another ship travelling in a straight line)
Sure, they require some conditions other than always spamming buttons (like beams do..), but I am willing to make that sacrifice for range.

I wrote some stuff on the meaning of leeches and such, but overall its just not really that big of a deal.

And I am starting to see energy on hit items, but they arent yet still as much as a 'must use' as kinetics are atm. There are still a few things holding me back from swapping. Mostly the macro thing. (i really dont want to spam 213123123123123 any harder than I already do.)

Valgor
01-07-2013, 09:59 AM
I wouldnt really say they require 'quite a bit' of skill, particularly when the game doesnt want you to hit targets anyway. (seriously, there are issues when your ship cant hit another ship travelling in a straight line)

I think that's because they don't actually aim at the enemy ship, but rather at the spot the enemy ship was in when the weapon was fired.
Maybe Shadow can shed some light on how this works exactly and why it might be screwing up occasionally...

gogis
01-08-2013, 04:32 AM
Redirectors are ok. I got a harvester and havent really had energy problems..

And its odd, I already fly around in circles and spam 1. *shrug*

I wouldnt really say they require 'quite a bit' of skill, particularly when the game doesnt want you to hit targets anyway. (seriously, there are issues when your ship cant hit another ship travelling in a straight line)
Sure, they require some conditions other than always spamming buttons (like beams do..), but I am willing to make that sacrifice for range.

I wrote some stuff on the meaning of leeches and such, but overall its just not really that big of a deal.

And I am starting to see energy on hit items, but they arent yet still as much as a 'must use' as kinetics are atm. There are still a few things holding me back from swapping. Mostly the macro thing. (i really dont want to spam 213123123123123 any harder than I already do.)

You can spam it with Autohotkey still. Redirectors, batteries, harvesters - it's all nothing compared to ability to spam attacks forever. Not to mention some crazy stuff like veteran bounty hunters, which move 1.5x-2x and kill you in couple of shots, you simply cannot kill them with kinetics or rockets.

Harvesters can't keep up if you attack race ships, which not die fast enough. No batteries ever regenerate fast enough to keep 3-5 weapons going indefenitely.

On the other hand you can keep 4-5 lasers + virus + disruptor all at once for no cost... Ouch. Tell me about balance.


I think that's because they don't actually aim at the enemy ship, but rather at the spot the enemy ship was in when the weapon was fired.
Maybe Shadow can shed some light on how this works exactly and why it might be screwing up occasionally...

Not exactly, kinetics shoot in predicted future position, which is not helping anyways.

gogis
01-08-2013, 04:38 AM
Also i found neat trick to ensure that all you kinetic shots will hit - tractor beam :D

Valgor
01-08-2013, 07:07 AM
Not exactly, kinetics shoot in predicted future position, which is not helping anyways.

I wonder if that's based on the Attack stat.

Shadow
01-08-2013, 03:37 PM
I wonder if that's based on the Attack stat.

The kinetic prediction stuff doesn't get better with higher attack. It's just a quick and simple prediction. It is purposely not hugely accurate with things that are far away, really quick, and/or turning.

tnk
01-08-2013, 08:52 PM
Man, I do love this game, but if I were to change something it would be to reduce the sheer quantity of loot, or just better indications of what loot may be an upgrade to something currently in your load-out, rather than having to check every single item in your inventory to try and determine its quality. Perhaps a "mark to sell" could be an option for those of us slightly more organizationally challenged like my brother.

As far as reducing content my brother and I both agree on this one (we play together a-lot), but me in particular because his "old-school" play style means he picks up pretty much everything and spends most of his time (I'd say over 70% of play time) either selling, upgrading, or balancing. Some kind of well adjusted quick-sell button would be a blessing, that prioritized the sale of low tier items first to free up slots (as-well as items that have been marked-for-sale?).

Side question: I figure the green plus '+' sign in the shops is supposed to indicate an upgrade? though I often find this not to exactly be the case, more often than not it tends to be an item offering less of what I want but with additional bonuses.

Roswitha
01-09-2013, 02:55 AM
Side question: I figure the green plus '+' sign in the shops is supposed to indicate an upgrade? though I often find this not to exactly be the case, more often than not it tends to be an item offering less of what I want but with additional bonuses.

The green plus means that the item in question is worth more money than your current item; it could also mean that it has a higher base stat, but not always.

CautiousChaos
01-10-2013, 01:00 PM
There's a setting under 'Game Options" that hides "crappy" loot. It may be that you still get tons of loot, though I haven't tried it myself.

Roswitha
01-10-2013, 03:02 PM
There's a setting under 'Game Options" that hides "crappy" loot. It may be that you still get tons of loot, though I haven't tried it myself.

The loot is still there. It just hides the label for loot that isn't worth much.

nox
01-13-2013, 08:08 AM
Guess you weren't a Starcon2 fan either? Kids these days.

All I can say is you have to enjoy each thing for what it is, rather than focusing on what it's not. I picked this up without any expectations, and played it coop with my kid for hours and had fun.

I'm not being an apologist here, just wanted to say that I didn't see these issues. It is what it is, and played that way it's an amusing space arcade game with some nuanced character development and design strat mixed in.

bong
01-21-2013, 02:39 AM
I guess you never played past 30, because with introduction of leechers only beam weapons remains as only variant. Which is silly, imo


if only they made components that slowed enemies down

oh wait they do