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Sinister Stairs
12-24-2010, 12:17 PM
Attached is a beta version of my monk class. If you have other class mods installed, the Monk button on the UI screen may conflict; it nestles in between Conjurers and Hybrids.

I'm primarily interested in getting feedback for balancing the class, and ideas for more interesting or more appropriate skills (particularly in the Priest tree).

Gory design notes to follow (with some modding questions in bold):

I. My primary design goal is to make the monk class balanced: Not overpowered, and erring on the side of underpowered. (I suspect the class is still too good.)
II. I wanted the monk to use Unarmed combat (a "fists" 2-handed weapon that could not be dropped), but I was unsuccessful; I'll revisit this in version 2.
III. The monk's skills borrow from a variety classes, so as such I have treated monks like a hybrid class (i.e. only two skill trees).
IV. I did not make the monk's subclasses available for Hybrids until I feel confident they are balanced.

Wushi Skills

Perfect Technique - Based on Eagle Eye and Mace Mastery

Priest (Monk) Skills

Cape - In all honesty, it's there because the Priest's basic skills would otherwise be sparse compared to the other classes. My misgiving is that it's not thematic for monks.

Qi Energy - I don't know if the PowerGainWhenDodge actually works. (And while I'm asking, would PowerGainWhenEvade?)

First Aid - Based on Lesser Heal with a shorter range for realism. Could be replaced with something more appropriate.

Increased Health - I've misgivings with this skill because Wushi also receive the Vit/Health bonus; but all of the other skill trees have 10 skills, so this is here until I can replace it with something more interesting.

Meditation - Sort of a combination of Prayer and Regeneration. Its base cost is cheaper than Regeneration, so it becomes less efficient at higher levels. Despite costing more than Prayer, I halved its effectiveness and still worry it's unbalanced. I suspect the combination of this, with Dim Mak makes monks overpowered.

The Way - I'm not happy with the skill name, but "Taoism" seems too modern.

Sixth Sense - I'm only marginally happier with this name than its original, Lightning Reflexes.

Leather Armor - I put this skill in for balance, although I admit it's not thematic. Also on the list to be replaced with something more appropriate.

Golden Temple - Odd name; I hope it's fitting.

Acupuncture - Combines slightly less effective versions of Deadly Aim and Spot Vulnerability. This skill is probably still too good, and will likely require tuning.

TODO

1. Make sure this guild isn't overpowered. I've been testing with low-level monks to make sure the skills are working properly, but I haven't gotten to any reasonable levels yet to compare it to other classes.

2. I'm still trying to get Unarmed combat working. If I'm successful, I will make many of the passive skills work with Unarmed-only.

3. I'd like to make a skill that decreases movement penalties (such as ice & oil), but I haven't figured it out yet.

4. If I ever feel monks are balanced enough for a 3rd skill tree, I'd like to toss in some "Jedi mind tricks."

5. Maybe make the monk skill trees "real" classes that can be Hybridized.

jeremyosborne
12-24-2010, 02:30 PM
Sinister,

I've downloaded this. After my first foray last night into the Level 50+ elite towns with my woefully unprepared Weaponmaster/Necromancer, I'm ready to start a new low level character.

As I'm starting to enjoy modding almost more than playing, I'll give my opinions after a bit, but you may want to try to enlist someone more experienced like DeathKnight.

One note: I'm not much of a power player, I more care about two things when I play games:

Am I having fun?

and

Are the characters practical and actually playable?

My follow up comments will probably fall within those two areas.

jeremyosborne
12-24-2010, 03:03 PM
My monk just saved his first town.

Very initial thoughts on the monk class:


I like the idea of having a monk class.
When I think of monks, and martial arts in general, I think of styles. Since this is a hack and slash game, the more theatrical "wire forms" for martial arts seen in movies would fit right in -- Drunken Master, Dragon Style, Tiger-Crane, just pick your favorites from your favorite movie. My opinion is that a monk class might be more stylistic with 3 different styles to choose from. Story wise this might be more fun, "Hey, I'm a Drunken Master/Necormancer hybrid."
I like where you are going with the wushi -- minor comment, I'm not a martial arts expert in physique or knowledge, but did you intend "Wushu"?
It seems like there is a mix of quick attack like skills along with crowd control and power attacks in the Wushi sub-class. A suggestion for the third piece of your Monk arch-class: have a class that is power based or darker, more assassin like, and appropriate for a skill like Dim Mak. Split existing power skills into that class; for the third class have the quicker, more theatrical skills like "Flurry of Blows", "Quickness of Feet", and Area of Affect skills like whirlwind.
Not quite sure what to make of the Priest class. I just can't wrap my head around why I would use this class outside of the monk. I think it's too much like the already existing Paladin or Healer. I like the leather armor idea, but if I was going to multi-class a mage for the armor, I think I'd choose the Paladin or Defender.
Monk weapons! One thing you could use to differentiate the monk is a set of monk weapons if you can't figure out the unarmed combat.
Due to the limited economy of attributes one gets throughout the game, I find the Spirit attribute to be the most underwhelming and borderline useless of the five. And that's a shame because the idea of the Spirit attribute is a good one, just like the idea of Charisma in Dungeons and Dragons is a good one. Dungeons and Dragons fixed Charisma by adding the Sorcerer class. You could fix the Spirit attribute in Din's Curse by making it a very spirit oriented class. In the end, at the rate the game progresses in difficulty, I don't think Spirit should replace Vitality in importance, but this class could offer enough incentive to actually make Spirit a worthwhile investment.
Adrenaline sounds like a good traditional "Flurry of Blows" skill. Change it so the skill is spammable and useful without being overpowered: raise the casting time just a bit, shorten the duration to maybe 15 seconds and set the cooldown time equal to it, raise the speed bonus per level a bit, and place a max skill level cap on it.
"The Way" skill could also include a general movement speed increase to differentiate it from the existing hide skills.


EDIT: Adding ideas directly here. Saving additional replies for conversations, if they happen.

Sinister Stairs
12-28-2010, 10:28 AM
Thanks for the feedback.

When I think of monks, and martial arts in general, I think of styles...Drunken Master, Dragon Style, Tiger-Crane, just pick your favorites from your favorite movie.

That's a really good idea. That wasn't how I envisioned the monk, but yours would be more interesting and Hybridable.

Not quite sure what to make of the Priest class. I just can't wrap my head around why I would use this class outside of the monk

In my design notes I think I mentioned that I designed the Monk class as a hybrid; i.e. not to be further Hybridized. But I agree with you that that's not in the spirit of DC; I like your idea of having styles for the subtrees.

You could fix the Spirit attribute in Din's Curse by making it a very spirit oriented class.

That's another excellent idea, and easy to implement too.

"The Way" skill could also include a general movement speed increase to differentiate it from the existing hide skills.

My original idea was to make it so it would allow you to move through hazards such as ice & oil without penalty. But I couldn't figure it out, so I went with the current implementation as a placeholder. But if I implement your styles trees instead that frees up a lot more creativity. :) Still working on the Unarmed, that's the big one for me.

Thanks again for the feedback!

jeremyosborne
12-28-2010, 04:06 PM
Still working on the Unarmed, that's the big one for me.

Would you mind sharing your results of the Unarmed skills with us? Even if you just do a very short paragraph write up and then let me know the starting point of the unarmed skills in your .gdb files, that should be enough to help me learn from what you did.

Looking forward to seeing the next rev of the monk class.

Sinister Stairs
12-28-2010, 04:52 PM
There's not much to report: I'm making it "work" by starting monks with an undroppable weapon "Fists" and not allowing them to use any other weapon types. (As far as I can tell, there's no way to add new ItemRequirement weapon classes -- I get an error in the log when I try.)

My base skill "Unarmed" is patterned off BaseSkillBasic, but it's really nothing more than a placeholder for text. (i.e. Anyone could wield fists, except that monks are the only ones that get them.)

jeremyosborne
12-28-2010, 09:51 PM
There's not much to report: I'm making it "work" by starting monks with an undroppable weapon "Fists" and not allowing them to use any other weapon types. (As far as I can tell, there's no way to add new ItemRequirement weapon classes -- I get an error in the log when I try.)

My base skill "Unarmed" is patterned off BaseSkillBasic, but it's really nothing more than a placeholder for text. (i.e. Anyone could wield fists, except that monks are the only ones that get them.)

Nice workaround :) I'm getting curious about what new things will be exposed in the expansion. I'll just have to wait and see.