View Full Version : Upgrading your ship only gives bonus stats not base stats. Why?

Hobo elf
05-08-2014, 02:38 PM
I was wondering why the +3 stats you get from upgrading your ship into the next class don't go into the base stat. I think this way the player would be given more incentive to dip in some extra points into the other stats to get the nice little bonus perks, because right now it seems to me that the most effective way to play is to just focus on Command and Tactics and anything else is mostly a waste since your crew cam easily handle the rest. And this is a little sad to me since you will miss out on the nice little bonus perks. I guess you can call it a trade off, but then if you had to choose then the extra slots for your ship are always much better.
Mind you that I only have 40 hours of game time and my highest ship level is 50 so I'm no expert on the game and its balance, but felt that this could give players even more meaningful choice for their ship building.

05-08-2014, 03:01 PM
You may have only 40 hours of game time, but you are absolutely correct - maxing out Command and spending the rest of your skill points into Tactics with a race that gets Tactics from Command is the way to get the most powerful ships possible.

How much of a problem is this, though?

Not every player enjoys min-maxing. I do, but after I built a few uber-powerful ships, I have been playing much less powerful builds, and enjoying it more, and for far longer. Drox Operative is great in the sense that it lets you fine-tune difficulty during sector generation, and gives you a very complex sandbox to play in.

Can the game benefit from serious balancing, an engaging story, competitive multi-player? Which game cannot? But it would take a lot of effort, and Soldak seems to have decided to put its resources into making Game 5 instead of developing Drox for the time being.

Speaking as someone who chooses his programming projects based only on how interesting they are, I can only respect their choice on what to work on. And you cannot argue with results, can you? There's no other company consistently producing games I enjoy as much as I enjoy Soldak's.

Hobo elf
05-08-2014, 04:02 PM
I know most people don't like min-maxing, and it can be quite a hassle in this game to juggle around a bunch of crew members and items. But I've noticed in Drox Operative, and in other Soldak Games as well, that you usually have to have at least some kind of solid plan for your character if you want to be able to fight with enemies of the same level as you at the higher difficulties and be able to do so at a timely pace without it degrading into a slow crawl.
My point is that other than handicapping yourself for personal challenge, there isn't much reason not to play this way in the higher levels. The gains of the other stats and bonuses just don't scale the same way as Command and more equipment does.

Anyways, lets not get overly excited here. It's not like I was asking for a total overhaul of the game. In many ways I think it's (almost) perfect as it is because it fulfills all the goals that it set out to do in a satisfying way. Half the reason I made this thread was because I just wanted to see if Shadow could be able to shed some light into why this was balanced in this way, mostly out of curiosity. It seems like a minor thing, but it does have a bit of an impact on your ship.

05-08-2014, 05:21 PM
Sorry for derailing the thread.

I actually started to answer your post because I wanted to say that I agreed that skills you get through command should count for the bonuses. But then I realized that if they counted as base stats, then the total probably would have to be capped at 250 (the way the base stats are, right now) Doing this, by itself, would close off some builds that rely on stacking Tactical until it becomes ridiculous.

I have an Ultimate Weapon with 250 base Tactics, 60 Tactics from Command and about 200 from four gunners. It uses unaimed weapons, and the damage multipliers, passive and active, allow a humble EMP (the earliest EM weapon) to blows up almost any level 200 enemy that comes into range.

So, I started thinking that the issue was not so simple, and how I would rebalance hull sizes and skill bonuses... and then I go completely sidetracked.

So, to recap: while the idea of giving base stat bonuses for stats deriving from Command, how would you suggest handling the combined base stat reaching 250? And if you uncap it, how will be make it clear to the players what is going on, and how do you feel about the 250 bonus becoming less special?

Hobo elf
05-08-2014, 05:59 PM
It's a hard nut to crack and I can't really answer your question in an educated way since I haven't experienced higher levels yet and don't know how the scaling goes there. But personally I don't feel like the 250 bonus would become any more or less special. At least this way the player would be more likely to actually be able to attain them instead of having a nice bonus sheet of cool perks that look neat on paper but aren't really worth it.

I'm having problems wording my self here since this is just pure feeling and less maths to back things up, but I want to point out that you might be looking at stat balance from the POV of Tactics. Tactics is a stat that you will want to pump with anyone no matter what so attaining the bonuses for Tactics is something that will happen for everyone regardless. Also, the bonuses for Tactics are incredibly good because they are % based and not flat increases which amount to nearly nothing the higher up you go in levels. Tactics itself scales incredibly well since it's also % based. I guess my main point for having the bonus stats be added into your base stat pool was so that other race ships that don't get a bonus to tactics could dip in a few extra points into some other stat to grab a nice little passive bonus from some other stats as well without spreading themselves too thin. Everyone needs tactics and the races that get more from it are at a bigger advantage than the ones that don't get it because of the way how equipment and Crew work.

The bonus perks for everything else but Tactics just feel kinda redundant with how stats work and I just thought that a change like this could've make them matter a bit more, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were a myriad of balancing issues that might prevent it from being so.

05-09-2014, 01:24 PM
I absolutely agree with you that Tactical is worth a lot more than any other stat (Command is not a stat in my book)

But what you are suggesting is not going to shift balance towards the other stats, nor will it make pumping Command any less of a min-maxer's obvious choice. If anything, it will make the best Dakka ship (Ultimate Weapon: 460 Command, 50 Tactical) even better. After all, the only thing that this ship does not get now is Specialist Bonuses beyond the first one, and getting base stats from Command will give you two more perks.

I am not saying that there is no way to balance stats and hulls against each other, but I am saying that it is quite the task, and that I see little point in minor fixes. This is a minor change - it will be make the game slightly easier, Tactical slightly more powerful, and may make a few things slightly more confusing for new players.

But hey, it's not as if we're going to decide whether it gets implemented or not.

Hobo elf
05-11-2014, 02:35 PM
Yup, like I said it's a tough thing to balance right and I'm no game developer to do it. Just thought I'd bring up my opinion on the stat bonuses and how they seem cool but, with the exception of the Tactical bonuses, are rather hard to attain while balancing out a ship that's functional enough to be fun to play with at the higher levels.