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udm
01-04-2011, 06:29 AM
I've clocked about 6 hours into the game, and I doubt I've seen it all yet, but I'd like to post my thoughts so far. I'll update this thread as I continue playing. It's going to be more of feedback than passing judgment. I'll leave that up to when the exppack finally gets released.

First things first, my general thoughts about the expansion: I like it so far. There are many changes that I think have good potential. Overall, the game feels more lively, and definitely a lot more challenging.

Feedback on changes ("-" sign for criticism, "+" sign for nods):

+ Love being able to use vials to collect spillages.

+ Really really like townspeople walking about and going about their business. I was pleasantly surprised when one guy got jealous over another guy's wife (and I absolutely love the "Jealousy -3 :(" message lol)

+ The new monsters look cool and threatening.

+ New music is a lot better.

+ Still <3 cave-ins.

+ Game's very challenging now. I can no longer play my Level 95 dungeon at Level 80.

+ The new quests and raids are really sweet. I was completely taken aback when I destroyed an evil Altar, and monsters raided my town. I was even more surprised when barbarians came out of nowhere to raid. That was really cool. Nice to see that uprisings have an impact on your teleportations too.

+ I was quite surprised to return to an upper level in the dungeon, and found it not only re-populated with monsters, but with traps, pillars, barrels and other objects.

+ Townspeople having wealth is a really really cool concept. Someone was caught laying traps, then fined. She eventually starved to death due to the fine. A fine example of emergent gameplay.

- Still a lack of intuition in many areas. For example, monsters in-fighting is still cool, but still a very "random" event, in the sense that the reason is not immediately apparent, and has little to no effect on the player. When monsters fight, I still don't care who wins, and usually just run in and take them all out. Sometimes, even when it's obvious two factions don't like each other, monsters standing a bit farther apart will still ignore each other. They don't notice each other as zealously as they would you. There needs to be more messages or information guiding the player. If a bunch of monsters have re-populated a section in the dungeon, the player should be informed; similarly, if they have set up more pillars in the area or placed more traps, not telling the player will give the significance of this feature less impact than it rightly deserves. Another example: telling the player when a monster has activated a trap by accident, not just falling through to another level in the dungeon.

- Many users have voiced out that invasion mode takes too long. In addition to that, I think Invasion mode needs to be more than just "spawn 4 monsters every 10 minutes". I would much rather have invasion mode spawn more monsters, or more challenging monsters, per wave. 100 rounds is a bit overkill; would 10 rounds of increasingly powerful and numerous monsters be a more feasible option? What does the community think about this?

- Most quests are still too two-dimensional - it is still alright to fail a lot of quests. If you don't save hungry townspeople, you don't lose out on much, and even if it's the death of an important character, you can still find a replacement in the dungeon. Given that much life has been breathed into the game's characters, there's a wealth of really unpredictable consequences that can be implemented with the failure (or success) of quests. For example, failing to save a kidnapped person may cause a relative to go renegade on the town.

- The timer for many quests are still too long. Maybe I'm a bit of a sadistic masochist, but I can still afford to dilly dally, run around and do some shopping etc. I have experienced really insane towns before where uprisings occur once every 2 minutes, but those are, for the most part, rare. If anything, I think there should be consistency amongst worlds in terms of timers for quests. I really like worlds where I'm forced to make quick decisions, or random events just coming out of the blue, taking me by surprise.

- My game still runs quite poorly when there are 6-10 monsters in one room, or when I'm in town. I'm using an AMD dual core with a GTS250, and I've already turned settings to mid-low, so I've no idea why this happens.

- While I like the addition of new demons to kick up the variety of gore in the game, I think they're not special enough, compared to DC's default monsters. They're just more meat fodder standing in your way, as opposed to spiders who can jump right in your face and cast web on you, or lichs who have the ability to raise the undead. Late game for me (Level 90s dungeons) is still a rush fest, rather than tiptoeing on careful grounds. It's still difficult, but because most of the creatures use the same strategy (rush head on), it's usually just a matter of who kills who first, unless there are pillars or barrels of oil in the area.

Personal wishlist of additions to the game, for the xpack or future iterations:

= The vials feature reminds me of Eschalon Book 1 and 2's Alchemy feature. While that is probably too complicated for a fast paced game like Din's, maybe the vials feature can be expanded on. When you drink a potion, you are left with an empty vial, rather than completely disappearing from your inventory. In addition, when you destroy Poisonous Mushrooms (which I always thought were quite pointless since they don't do much damage to either you or the enemy), you may obtain herbs to mix potions. You can also find them in the game world at random, though they are by and large quite rare. It's more of an extraneous activity rather than a full blown career in the game.

= Here's a thought about the camera: the game is much more hectic, and becomes a bit too convoluted when you turn on Raging Hordes. It's just a personal feeling, but I prefer to see more of what's around me. The existing camera feels a bit too claustrophobic when the action gets chaotic.

= I have an idea about monster in-fighting. Perhaps the chances of wars between factions will escalate if the casualty count inflicted by each side on the other increases. Or, if monsters accidentally kill or injure each other, it will start a war too, or at least some sort of conflict, or even a quest or two.

= I still think it's a good idea to be able to choose where you want to put the defense totems, especially with Invasion mode.

= Suggested this before, but torches and lights should really have an impact on the radius of luminosity too.

= Here's to hoping widescreen users get more love. I can't remember how many times I've died by accidentally clicking on the top left health/mana/stamina bars while trying to escape from a horde of greater fire elementals or dark elf priests.

= More environmental interactivity, following the style of cave-ins and leaking green gas, are always welcome. I just killed 5 monsters who were chasing me, including Kralls and Rylors, with the help of some green gas. It was good fun experiencing this sensation of exhilaration once again.

= Less straightforward, less same-y dungeons, less blocky dungeons, but that's a story for another day I suppose. Still worth mentioning though.

Bugs:

- Found a door in the middle of a dungeon. It wasn't hinged to a wall at all. Pic attached below.
- Dungeons reset everytime you save and exit (bug?)

That's it for now, but OP will be updated as I continue playing through the week. Cheers everyone, and thanks for reading :)

abomination5
01-04-2011, 09:29 AM
For the camera try changing r_fov from 60 to 90 in the user.cfg file. It isn't perfect but I've found it allows me to see much better.

udm
01-04-2011, 10:17 AM
Nice I didn't know about this, thanks!

-edit- Tried an FOV of 75. That's really quite good, I can see a lot better now without getting a migraine. Thanks again for the suggestion!

(now if only we can get an FOV of 60 in that distance :p)

jeremyosborne
01-04-2011, 12:51 PM
Many users have voiced out that invasion mode takes too long. In addition to that, I think Invasion mode needs to be more than just "spawn 4 monsters every 10 minutes". I would much rather have invasion mode spawn more monsters, or more challenging monsters, per wave. 100 rounds is a bit overkill; would 10 rounds of increasingly powerful and numerous monsters be a more feasible option? What does the community think about this?

I haven't played invasion mode yet, but my first question about it, and why I've avoided it is exactly what you mention: 100 rounds seems a bit long, because I don't know what "100 rounds" translates to in time.

My main point of playing games is to (1) have fun, and (2) be challenged,

I'd be as happy with 10 well organized, intense, and fun rounds as I would be with a marathon of 100.

In the end, survival modes seem to be more about time than anything else. The time should be adjusted to not be a cake walk, but shouldn't require one to lose 24 hours of their life, either.

Nobear
01-04-2011, 02:41 PM
Does anyone know how to link to a thread? Anyway, you guys should all check out my thread on page 2, called "Invasion Mode: Ideas for Improvement". Right now, beating a full Invasion Mode would take a ridiculous 16.7 hours, with 10 min between each wave. Shadow stated that he likes my idea of shortening the time to 30 sec per wave after all non-optional quests have been completed. He also says it currently does get harder with each wave. Once he implements the timing change, we'll be able to work on tuning the challenge ramp-up level.

Shadow
01-04-2011, 03:27 PM
For example, failing to save a kidnapped person may cause a relative to go renegade on the town.

- Not sure if this is an intended feature, but the dungeon resets itself everytime you quit and come back to it. Not a big fan of it if it's intended.

Or, if monsters accidentally kill or injure each other, it will start a war too, or at least some sort of conflict, or even a quest or two.

Killed NPCs does usually have an impact on the happiness of others.

Resets wouldn't be on purpose, I'll look into it.

Wars can be started when they kill each other, might need to change the chance that it happens though.

EternalChampion
01-04-2011, 04:40 PM
I got a dungeon reset on save and exit as well. All gates and maps reset, but not quests, as far as levels go, i.e. all available quests were given at the correct depth where I saved (lvl7). Unfortunately, I don't remember if I had any active quests when I saved. I did save while in town, which is named Zelra. The dungeon is named Demonic Tomb. I also found an unattached door (see pic below).

udm
01-04-2011, 06:02 PM
^Yup, if you save and exit in the dungeon, everything's fine, but the dungeon resets if you save in town.

EternalChampion
01-04-2011, 09:13 PM
^Yup, if you save and exit in the dungeon, everything's fine, but the dungeon resets if you save in town.

Absolutely correct.

I also had the problem of not having the boss on the bottom level for 134 quests... until I saved and exited, went back to town thru a gate and came back thru the gate... and he was waiting right there. :mad:

udm
01-23-2011, 03:52 AM
I tried playing about with some of the new classes. Nothing class related to report/feedback on yet, but I want to re-stress, I really like the empty vials idea. I picked up some acid on the floor today, and lo and behold, I managed to imbue my weapon with acid!

I haven't played enough with this yet though, but it seems quite underused atm. The possibilities of what you can do with an empty vial are still quite linear, and I'd certainly like to see more being done with this idea. It doesn't have to simply be restricted to picking up substances on the floor. Furthermore, this idea also re-emphasizes the "cool" factor of being able to use items in my inventory to tinker with the environment. Things like creating vortexes with green gas and flaming oil etc, these are really ideas that can be expanded on to create multi-linear options for the player. As it is, many objects in the environment, like torches, still serve mainly aesthetic purposes.

Other notes (bugs, feedback, comments, questions):

- Tornadoes in town kill townspeople and you lose rep. Is there a way to stop tornadoes?
- I found a torch stuck in a wall. Picture to be attached later.
- Being told that you've cleared a dungeon is a very helpful addition to the game.
- Do monsters notice each other less easily than they do the player? Seems that enemy factions aggro each other less aggressively than the player does.

udm
01-25-2011, 01:33 AM
- Pets behaviours are still a bit quirky. Still not really noticing a huge difference between Aggressive and Defensive, although they do attack more often in Defensive mode than Aggressive. They rarely protect me when I want them to though.

- Also, another non-expansion related thing: enemies don't activate traps. Would be fun if they could, since it adds to the unpredictability of the game.

- Another non-expansion related request: remove the "Need an enemy" message which always sticks up in the center of the screen when you're button mashing and not targeting an enemy. It's not really necessary and it only blocks the enemy you're trying to hit. "Can't use skills" is also a bit obtrusive. I never quite noticed this when playing a non-Conjurer class, but this becomes quite obvious when you do, since your cursor highlights dead bodies too.

- Still finding myself unconcerned about whether NPCs starve to death or not :(

Comments:

- I like some of the new animations that the reaver has!

- Had a very nice quest chain just now. Warmaster Zelia was caught poisoning the food supply. Later, he got into a fight with some of the townspeople. By this time he was starving and in need of money. Then, he was caught worshipping the evil god Mortus and finally banished. Epic! The best part? I could have just easily killed him and stopped all this from happening lol! By the way, is there any correlation between these events, or is it mere coincidence? Whatever it is, these are the kind of non-linear questlines I really enjoy from DC :)

Bugs:

- If a townsperson needs money, and then goes renegade and you kill him, that quest will still be Active.
- Sometimes when two people get into a fight, they will just keep initiating a fight, and breaking it up, over and over again. This results in a lot of text spamming at one shot e.g.
"X initiated a fight with Y"
"The fight between X and Y has stopped"
"X initiated a fight with Y"
"The fight between X and Y has stopped"
"X initiated a fight with Y"
"The fight between X and Y has stopped"
- Bosses still don't always show up. I searched the entire map for one boss but couldn't find it.

Shadow
01-25-2011, 10:03 AM
- Had a very nice quest chain just now. Warmaster Zelia was caught poisoning the food supply. Later, he got into a fight with some of the townspeople. By this time he was starving and in need of money. Then, he was caught worshipping the evil god Mortus and finally banished. Epic! The best part? I could have just easily killed him and stopped all this from happening lol! By the way, is there any correlation between these events, or is it mere coincidence? Whatever it is, these are the kind of non-linear questlines I really enjoy from DC :)

Yes and no. There is nothing that specifies this chain of events specifically, but there are definitely reasons why each thing happened. For example, getting caught poisoning the food supply is going to get her fined, make her unhappier, and piss off a lot of the town. So having money problems and getting into fights isn't very surprising.

Bluddy
01-25-2011, 10:16 AM
- Pets behaviours are still a bit quirky. Still not really noticing a huge difference between Aggressive and Defensive, although they do attack more often in Defensive mode than Aggressive. They rarely protect me when I want them to though.

Agreed. They don't protect me either though I do notice different behavior. I keep them on aggressive because I don't find defensive useful enough.

- Also, another non-expansion related thing: enemies don't activate traps. Would be fun if they could, since it adds to the unpredictability of the game.

Not very practical as all traps would be triggered constantly. But the rogue's disarm traps skill could double as 'disarm and set trap for enemy'. When you manage to do it, a message on screen would tell you the trap has been set for monsters.

- Still finding myself unconcerned about whether NPCs starve to death or not :(

Really? I find myself donating to them non-stop. But they also do bad things in this state no? Don't they start fights? Maybe they could also randomly choose to commit suicide to make us feel bad for not feeding them.

- Sometimes when two people get into a fight, they will just keep initiating a fight, and breaking it up, over and over again. This results in a lot of text spamming at one shot e.g.
"X initiated a fight with Y"
"The fight between X and Y has stopped"
"X initiated a fight with Y"
"The fight between X and Y has stopped"
"X initiated a fight with Y"
"The fight between X and Y has stopped"


I recommend a single flashing fight icon such as in Dungeon Keeper. A tooltip or a more dynamic window would tell you which NPCs are currently fighting.

udm
01-25-2011, 11:05 AM
Really? I find myself donating to them non-stop. But they also do bad things in this state no? Don't they start fights? Maybe they could also randomly choose to commit suicide to make us feel bad for not feeding them.

Maybe I'm just sadistic, but I'm hoping they would starve just so they would start these things LOL! I think Steven already knows about my penchant for trouble to happen in the game lol. I'm not a huge fan of ARPGs, but I like Din's Curse because of these little events that can pop up unexpectedly.

Yes and no. There is nothing that specifies this chain of events specifically, but there are definitely reasons why each thing happened. For example, getting caught poisoning the food supply is going to get her fined, make her unhappier, and piss off a lot of the town. So having money problems and getting into fights isn't very surprising.

Ah that explains it thanks!

Bluddy
01-25-2011, 11:10 AM
:) The only thing I can think of that would allow your poor NPCs to survive is if they created a 'boredom machine' as a result of their hunger. It would stop all interesting things in the game.

Oh and I just realized something - NPCs that die from starvation should haunt the town as ghosts!

ebarstad
01-25-2011, 11:21 AM
Oh and I just realized something - NPCs that die from starvation should haunt the town as ghosts!

Ha -- that's a fun idea!

udm
01-26-2011, 12:06 AM
Oh and I just realized something - NPCs that die from starvation should haunt the town as ghosts!

If that gets implemented, I will never want to save NPCs :D

Archon
01-26-2011, 08:15 PM
I agree with you udm on the monsters. All the expansion monsters are very fun to hack to pieces. I like how the monsters have multiple abilities like the winged rylor shielding itself with gives it a strong thorns ability temporarily along with a strong melee strike and the regular rylor throwing bombs along with a melee ability.