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Bluddy
02-14-2011, 04:11 PM
OK this thread is for skill balancing, as the title says. Post all your observations and recommendations in here please, even if you posted them elsewhere.

Bluddy
02-14-2011, 04:15 PM
I'll just post Alstein's post from the other thread, since he already put in a lot of effort:

Ok, I'll list by class what I see as useless in the base game, starting with priests

Paladin Shield Bash- just an underpowered skill across the board
Zeal- not worth 6 pts.

Paladins need more in general I believe, Din's Additionals has some great stuff- though some of it is OP in my eyes.

Healer

Cure Poison- needs to be linked to a Cure Fire like in Din's additions, maybe even a Cure Acid.

Holy Shield - useful, but needs to be stronger or have longer effective time or less recharge time with level. This is a general problem with your skills.

Shaman-

Champion- recharge time too long

I'd say Shamans need more skills also.

Warrior-

Weaponmaster

Power Strike- skill isn't bad, but Perfect Strike is better for a higher mana cost, which is negligible, so it's underpowered in that sense. Maybe if you used devastating blow more, which I don't use, but can see a reason to use.

Gladiator

Cleave- the damage malus needs to go.

Savage Strike- unsure it's worth 6 points

Defender

Shield Bash- see Paladin

Revenge- seems too situational with too short a time to use. Maybe the skill should be automatic?

Retaliation- not worth 8 points.

Rogue-

Thief

Caltrops- too much cooldown time, maybe cut it by level some?

Concentration Skills- too much cooldown time here also

Trickster

Sleight of Hand- does anyone use this?

Feint- not worth 6 points, effect doesn't last long enough?

Assassin

Spot Vulnerability- too expensive

Critical Strike- should be automatic perhaps?

Fire Mage

Flame Blade- time should increase with level up to recharge time. 5secs/level perhaps

Ice Mage

Ice Armor- less recharge time/longer effect time by level

Concentration- why is this a 1pt skill for gladiators and 6pt for Ice Mages?

Permafrost- this is worth 8 pts how? It's nowhere near as good as the good 8 pt skills.

Magician

Blinding Flash- needs a slight power up or reduction in cooldown timer

Arcane Blast- should be quicker

Magic Shield- needs to be stronger, or less recharge time

Arcane Drain- should perhaps give the caster life and have duration increased to 10 secs?

Arcane Swarm- horrible at 8pts. Needs to do vastly more damage.

Archer

Marked for Death- vastly overpriced at 6pts. Might be worth 1 or 2.

Hunter

fine

Druid

Mana Regen- needs to be a passive effect- not a spell, or have its effect increase by 1min/level until it reaches 5.

Conjurer

Curses- need either a range increase with level, or a separate skill for 2-3 pts which increases radius by 2 ft/level, capped at 7.

fine, but needs an additional skill

Necromancer

Lich- could stand to be cheaper, or a stronger effect

Sorcerer

Chain Lightning- needs to work on more targets

Thunderbolt - if stun is nerfed, lightning mastery should work on it

Ball Lightning/Lightning Swarm- need more effectiveness

Reaver

Charge, Rampage- need cooldowns reduced by level
Breach- needs to be cheaper 4 pt skill perhaps


Warden
Shield Blast- why is a 3pt skill= 1pt Shield Bash for other classes, and Shield Bash underpowered as is?

Shield Sweep- for 8 pts should have a minimal recharge time

Wards- should also have recharge reduce by level

Demonologist

Inferno- underpowered, should be a toggle (maybe have it drain mana until you turn it off)

Blood Sacrifice- damage you take should go up by less per level. Maybe +1 per level, otherwise fine

Blood Rage- underpowered at 6 pts. Maybe should be automatic

Circles- should have reduced recharge time by level.

DeathKnight1728
02-14-2011, 05:25 PM
I dont agree with 2 of the points you made. Blood rage is very good if you get hit alot, and with an aoe attack, you can clear the room with 1 casting (plus aoe) and more with more castings of it. Maybe increase the damage a bit, but overall i think its fine. The circle of protections are another one. They eventually have a reuse time of 60 seconds at lvl 8, and they last 60 seconds. There's not much more you can get it and you can use both at the same time too. Circle of protections go up in time by 5 seconds per lvl. Everything else sounds fair and i am for it.

Especially the blood sacrifice. That could be a great skill, but unfortunately way too much health over time.

Bluddy
02-14-2011, 06:16 PM
OK just played with a classic rogue for the first time. Granted, it was just the first town and my impressions could change once I go on to higher level towns, but at least so far, this class just kicks butt -- perhaps too much butt. I'll need other people to tell me if that changes later on.

Stealth seems SUPER powerful. This is the first town I've actually run out of quests for! Optional ones too! Just go in, get the stuff done, and come out. At this point (unless people with more experience say otherwise) I'd like to see it nerfed somewhat. For example, bumping into monsters could make you visible; making noise around monsters could make you visible. In my mind it should be something I need to be very careful about rather than running around willy nilly getting all my quests done. Oh -- make me move slowly when stealthed. Makes sense, no?

And I disagree with Alstein -- Sleight of Hand, especially when stealthed, can seemingly make an entire army tear each other apart as you stand idly by.

Max_Powers
02-14-2011, 06:59 PM
Don't base observations on just the first part of the game. Please also don't try and alter the game based on early observations. All characters are badazz in the beginning and all the way up to the 20's or 30's. It is after that that you see how things really work.

Believe me, there are plenty of creatures that can spot a stealthed character straight up without you either being close or doing something to get spotted. Krall also can make a mark on you that makes it easier for you to be spotted(though not sure how this works). I also think that higher level creatures may be more observant.

A lot of badazz characters end up being what is known as a glass cannon. At higher levels you can die in one shot, or be surrounded and overwhelmed. My level 31 trickster/weaponmaster is and has been badazz, but with experience I know that I am going to run into serious problems with having enough armor and enough vitality. At higher levels Stealth is the only thing making that character viable. But I will have to play within that stealthed window and when I get out of it I am toast. Here is a scenario:

I am stealthed, I try and pick off as many from a group as I can with shuriken and stealth tactics. I then, having stealth active, run in and hopefully kill all survivors within 5 seconds. When that doesn't work, it is time to run, or smoke screen and run until I can get out of view to re-activate stealth.

Anyway, long story short - I think Stealth is fine as it is. I would rather skills that aren't so good get a boost instead of nerfing anything. Also, I could have sworn that I saw a post the other day, Bluddy, that said you haven't taken a character out of the 20's yet. Is that true?

Nomad_Soul
02-14-2011, 07:00 PM
I think Fire Elemental (wizard; fire mage subclass) could use a boost.

I'll preface this by saying that I know the wizard class has a lot of things going for it, and that summons/pets are the specialty of the conjurer; these factors must of course be considered when balancing the fire elemental.

That said, I feel as though the fire elemental still just isn't really worth the very high point investment. The limited lifespan, limited survivability within that lifespan, long cooldown, and limited damage potential really make me think it's just wiser to invest one's points in simply killing or crowd controlling the enemy directly. I believe that the elemental could really use a boost to make it at least worth a look.

I'd say multishot (ranger; archer subclass) could use some tweaking too. From my own experiments with it, it seems more like a close quarters only "shotgun" blast at best. The very wide spread of the shots make it a questionable and inefficient ability for any sort of distance work. Of course, distance work is sort of the point to the ranger. One problem I see with it is the "side shots" inevitably seem to end up firing off harmlessly into empty space or into the sides of walls.

Tightening up the "spread" or "cone" (or making it into more of a cone style attack) of the shots might be interesting, for starters.


OK just played with a classic rogue for the first time. Granted, it was just the first town and my impressions could change once I go on to higher level towns, but at least so far, this class just kicks butt -- perhaps too much butt. I'll need other people to tell me if that changes later on.

Stealth seems SUPER powerful. This is the first town I've actually run out of quests for!


I'd say stealth is fine where it is. Everything tends to be pretty easy in the first town, with just about any character imo. When playing a conjurer recently, for the first town I mostly just ran around beating things down in melee with a staff in cloth armor and just pretty much neglected to invest in any stats. I could one shot almost anything with a rank 1/tier 1 damage spell. Of course, as the levels go by, that situation changes, and rightfully so. Bear in mind also that enemies tend to be less aggressive and less "perceptive" of the player in general at earlier levels; this changes later too.

Getting back to stealth, I have a level 53 trickster hybrid and while stealth remains useful, it does lose at least some effectiveness as the levels go by. Again, I think it's fine where it is.

As for rogues in general, I'd say they're fine too. One personal gripe I have with the rogue class is the lack of strong area damage. Charged strike is fine and all if you keep dropping the points in non-stop, but when things get heavy, I really wish for the good old one-two warrior punch of whirlwind+cleave.

Valgor
02-14-2011, 07:06 PM
I'm finding Permafrost extremely useful for complementing Shatter (which is the only ice-based attack spell that doesn't cause Frost),
mainly for keeping the more dangerous monsters from catching up with you while on the run from their melee attacks.
My only gripe is that its blast can't be used to put out fires. But yes, 8 skill points is a bit too much.

Also, Ice Storm and Frost Nova seem way too weak against higher level monsters, unless you spam 'em like there'd be no tomorrow.

Max_Powers
02-14-2011, 07:18 PM
Raise Dead:

I have a couple gripes with it.

The first is why are so many creatures excluded from this? Does an Orc have no soul? Why can't I bring back amophs(even the smallest little one?)? Once brought back, why can't I make them use heatlh/life stones?

The second is the new fear algorithm or whatever. Sometimes your pets just seem to stay afraid all the time. Some will be afraid in town. Some just run around and around the area all afraid while yourself and the other non-iffy(if you know what I mean)pets do the fighting. Why should something brought back from the dead even be afraid?

DeathKnight1728
02-14-2011, 08:47 PM
The thief class is not very strong compared to the trickster and even the assassin. You do get dagger mastery, thats true. And the concentrations sometimes help, but you cant rely on them. What i find is horrible about the thief is the main attack you get-slice. It is 1.6 seconds long, which is not bad but the damage part is at the end which makes it horribly unreliable and sometimes can kill you. When i used to play dop, slice was fast and did its damage and that was it. I think if you wanted to make the thief class better, slice should turn into 1.1 or 1.2 seconds long. The thief should be about speed, not a slow attack that does more damage, but rarely connects.

I think this would help make the class more viable. The extra damage from time isnt worth it as the attack damage only goes up by 15% anyway.

I also think that dagger mastery might be worthwhile if you threw in a little armor piercing. Daggers dont do much damage, so even 5 armor piercing would be cool to add.

Roswitha
02-14-2011, 11:20 PM
Raise Dead:

I have a couple gripes with it.

The first is why are so many creatures excluded from this? Does an Orc have no soul? Why can't I bring back amophs(even the smallest little one?)? Once brought back, why can't I make them use heatlh/life stones?


Here's why you can't raise orcs.
The lore goes something like this: a necromancer once tried to create some zombies from live elves (he thought they were dead). The raise failed of course since they weren't dead. However, the spell transformed the elves into orcs and then the necro was promptly ripped into shreds.

An amorph is essentially an animate ball of mud, so when it dies it returns to mud. Animating mud is different from animating a corpse.

Your army can't heal from a health stone because that would make it a little too convenient. The compromise is that they will now heal at Din's altar -- full health but requires a trip to town.

alstein
02-15-2011, 01:51 AM
One question, does stealth's stealthiness improve with level at all? It probably should.

Bluddy
02-15-2011, 01:52 AM
Anyway, long story short - I think Stealth is fine as it is. I would rather skills that aren't so good get a boost instead of nerfing anything. Also, I could have sworn that I saw a post the other day, Bluddy, that said you haven't taken a character out of the 20's yet. Is that true?

:o Yes you're right. Truthfully, I should be shutting up in this thread. I can talk about NPC balance, interactivity and such, but I really have no right to talk about skill balance since I just haven't logged in enough hours (though, in my defense, I have tried). So that's it for my attempt at contributing to this thread. :)

Crisses
02-15-2011, 04:58 PM
Ok, I have a level 41 trickster/hunter (last tested at level 41, dungeon level 50 Elite, Sleight of Hand 4, Stealth 10, hunter's Light Touch at 10) and I've logged a bunch of fun observations about both Stealth and Sleight of Hand which I use pretty extensively. I took this hybrid especially to be a covert-op agent. Works nice in multiplayer when I have to run around and activate a gate for the group, or go a few levels ahead to stop some nasties before they do something awful while the rest of the group trogs through knee-deep monster corpses.

That said -- first thing you do is take an experience hit. You can "win" the town quicker, but if you kill less critters, you get less XP. Period (except multiplayer when you get a share of XP). Sleight-of-hand does not give you XP for causing wars between critters. So it's great to clear a crowded tight hall so you can get by -- and it's rather amusing :) -- but on the XP side, sitting around and watching them kill each other does you no good. However, it's good to get them hurt so you can pick them off easily if that's your thing. :)

1) Stuff catches on that I'm there pretty often. Even if I throw an immolation trap (hunter - appx level 4-5 trap) at a door a whole corridor away, I get the sound penalty. So the critters (that survive) pour out of the room and will find me around the bend. But at least they have to walk through the flaming door first :) Same goes for setting groups of barrels on fire. I throw the immolation trap and run like heck, even stealthed. I have to be a certain distance away to escape discovery -- not just out of sight. If those barrels explode, a bunch of hurt monsters are coming after me. How they know I did it is a mystery. But it does add spice to my 007'ing.

2) Once a critter "knows" you're around, even if you re-stealth through a gate, stairs, or around a corner, they seem to catch on that you're around pretty quick. Maybe it adds to their "hate" factor? Dunno.

3) Some critters are more perceptive than others. Almost anything underground -- most notably zombies.... And Elites, Champions, Bosses -- you don't have much chance to fool them unless you're really concentrating on pumping up your covert skills. I think having the hunter's Light Touch helps some. Expect to be caught. Don't count on re-stealthing to get back through the room.

4) Sometimes I can run into crowded rooms and be in the midst of tons of critters and not be noticed. If they're already fighting and distracted it helps a lot (chaos town mod for example). But if I run around stealthed and they're bored -- and I DON'T distract them with slight of hand -- they're more likely to catch me. At least that's what it seems like...

5) Slight of hand on a critter that has no viable target breaks your stealth. i.e. don't use it on a crowd of 1 or on a critter too far away from viable targets. Makes sense, after all you're giving them a weggie and hoping they blame their bunkmate.

6) If the boss or target(s) of a quest are ghosts, bugs -- something that's hidden until it attacks you -- you miss out with Stealth. No use running ahead to get the boss and snipe him if you can't FIND him. You have to trigger these critters to fight them. So you may end up having to wipe all the critters on the level anyway.

Much of my observations could be luck of the draw or coincidence. Then there's the bug...

Most notably, I've confirmed that slight of hand is ineffectual on anything that ONLY has a ranged attack when it targets its own kind. It's a game bug. The Hate goes up -- they try to attack the buddy, but it's not effective. Their buddy doesn't realize they're "under attack" -- they never engage their attacker, they completely ignore it. The animation (arrow, fireball, etc.) doesn't happen. The health bars never appear to show damage (because none is taking place). I've seen this with Torvah shamans, Dark Elf mages & priests (but the mage's ice storm works), and Skeleton Archers. I've been double checking on other species as I come across them. If someone wants to double check it, find a group of one of these species (also try naga priests, liches...) without other viable targets nearby, and sleight-of-hand them. I've even gone away and come back and they're still attempting to hurt each other.

In conclusion, I think that the stealth/sleight of hand combo is a viable combo but not overpowered because of the XP hit involved and the relatively high chance of being discovered. It's a good alternative to complete hack-n-slash if that's not your style. Sometimes, though, a quest just requires you to kill something.

I have a bunch of observations in the DC bugs thread...I just loaded Demon Wars today and was looking at the thread.

Bak
02-15-2011, 05:14 PM
Only have my rogue up to 20, so don't know if this still applies at higher levels. If critters are zeroing in on my stealthed rogue (due to noise or what not), I un-stealth (if not already done so) to get things back to normal, then start to run away. If I can get around a corner without anything in sight, stealthing at that point will stop the mob from chasing your character.

Comes in very handy when shirikening the boss monsters from a distance, while near an intersection. But the important thing is to be visible to the boss, before running out of sight.

DeathKnight1728
02-15-2011, 06:37 PM
Ok, I have a level 41 trickster/hunter (last tested at level 41, dungeon level 50 Elite, Sleight of Hand 4, Stealth 10, hunter's Light Touch at 10) and I've logged a bunch of fun observations about both Stealth and Sleight of Hand which I use pretty extensively. I took this hybrid especially to be a covert-op agent. Works nice in multiplayer when I have to run around and activate a gate for the group, or go a few levels ahead to stop some nasties before they do something awful while the rest of the group trogs through knee-deep monster corpses.

That said -- first thing you do is take an experience hit. You can "win" the town quicker, but if you kill less critters, you get less XP. Period (except multiplayer when you get a share of XP). Sleight-of-hand does not give you XP for causing wars between critters. So it's great to clear a crowded tight hall so you can get by -- and it's rather amusing :) -- but on the XP side, sitting around and watching them kill each other does you no good. However, it's good to get them hurt so you can pick them off easily if that's your thing. :)



Ok, that is very good news for me. I have always wanted to try the sleight of hand way but never got good results from it. I might have to try that now. But the only problem is still that if you dont get experience from the monster wars that you are starting, it kind of cuts down on your experience. Its cool that you have a group that you play with that has you do covert op stuff, but for me, I dont. And if i went three levels lower, someone on the first floor might attack the town, which would screw me big time. There must be a way to eventually maybe add that whatever monster is killed with sleight of hand-the experience goes to the person that cast it. That would make sense and it would be fun too.

By the way Crisses, have you had any luck with jab? I got it to lvl 6 but didnt notice monsters attacking other monsters instead of me. It does fair damage but overall im not sure.

Max_Powers
02-15-2011, 07:20 PM
1) Stuff catches on that I'm there pretty often. Even if I throw an immolation trap (hunter - appx level 4-5 trap) at a door a whole corridor away, I get the sound penalty. So the critters (that survive) pour out of the room and will find me around the bend. But at least they have to walk through the flaming door first :) Same goes for setting groups of barrels on fire. I throw the immolation trap and run like heck, even stealthed. I have to be a certain distance away to escape discovery -- not just out of sight. If those barrels explode, a bunch of hurt monsters are coming after me. How they know I did it is a mystery. But it does add spice to my 007'ing.

To me this is a bug. Here is my story:

I have a level 72 trickster/necro. I will find a locked door. I back way up away from door and throw a shuriken. Upon doing that my pets(5 raise dead)recognize the door as a target. Sometimes the shuriken throw will miss or not destroy the door. My pets rush in an bash it open. Then, instead of what has been locked in side just assuming that it was my pets that attacked it - I am spotted....way back here....behind a wall of baddies. That makes no sense and has to be a bug.


Only have my rogue up to 20, so don't know if this still applies at higher levels. If critters are zeroing in on my stealthed rogue (due to noise or what not), I un-stealth (if not already done so) to get things back to normal, then start to run away. If I can get around a corner without anything in sight, stealthing at that point will stop the mob from chasing your character.

Comes in very handy when shirikening the boss monsters from a distance, while near an intersection. But the important thing is to be visible to the boss, before running out of sight.

Yes, I use this tactic often. It was what I meant by "stealth tactics". If there is a darkness machine it makes it even easier. The champions, elites and bosses all have that aura around them. They stick out like a sore thumb in the darkness. You can target them on the corners of your screen. You can often get off numerous throws without being spotted and when you are just run back a little ways and re-cast stealth. You can also use objects around the dungeon to break LOS.

Max_Powers
02-15-2011, 07:29 PM
:o Yes you're right. Truthfully, I should be shutting up in this thread. I can talk about NPC balance, interactivity and such, but I really have no right to talk about skill balance since I just haven't logged in enough hours (though, in my defense, I have tried). So that's it for my attempt at contributing to this thread. :)

Now, now, that's not quite what I meant. Look at it from my perspective. Someone comes in and says they are playing a rogue for the first time, and on the first town. They have never taken a character out of the 20's....and then they use the 'N' word. *Gasp* I would bet there are forums elsewhere in the internets that if you had said that like that there would be people knocking on your door with torches and pitchforks :p:)

Ps,

OMG this forum only lets you use like 4 smilies!!!!!!!!!111 Poor discriminated smilies. (I would put a frowny face here but....)

Jorlen
02-15-2011, 08:21 PM
Archer:

- The skill that increases attack speed for a few seconds should instead be a passive permanent skill, maybe even lower its strength if need. Bows feel slow, this would be a good skill investment to offset this.

- I feel as though the multi-arrow skill's spread is far too wide; it would be great to have the spread width reduced

- is it me or are good bows fairly hard to come by?

Crisses
02-15-2011, 08:38 PM
- is it me or are good bows fairly hard to come by?

My trickster/hunter is my highest lvl character at about 41 right now. I think I've had the bow I have now for about 20 levels. Oh, yeah, and I didn't find it -- someone gave it to me who stumbled on it in a multiplayer game. So yes. I would agree. The bow before that I found and had for perhaps 5-8 levels minimum.

I tend to do a lot of hand-me-downs in this game. It's really tough stumbling on certain things. Like bags. Lots of bag hand-me-downs here. I found a bag vendor! Once. In the first dungeon for my first demonwar character today. all pouches because my character was like level 5 at most.

Crisses
02-15-2011, 08:39 PM
Yes, I use this tactic often. It was what I meant by "stealth tactics". If there is a darkness machine it makes it even easier. The champions, elites and bosses all have that aura around them. They stick out like a sore thumb in the darkness. You can target them on the corners of your screen. You can often get off numerous throws without being spotted and when you are just run back a little ways and re-cast stealth. You can also use objects around the dungeon to break LOS.

I have the hunter tree and barbed arrows. Do you think shuriken is better? Or are they about the same?

Max_Powers
02-15-2011, 08:45 PM
I have the hunter tree and barbed arrows. Do you think shuriken is better? Or are they about the same?

Sorry, I really haven't played around much with the Ranger class at all. The best I have done so far is a level 12 trickster/archer.

Hopefully some one else will know.

Max_Powers
02-16-2011, 12:12 AM
Regeneration:

To me this skill needs to be bumped up a notch, maybe even 50%. To me there should be an option for the Priest to either be a healer, or to have healing on all the time. As it is now, Regeneration is weak and becomes more and more weak as time goes along. My level 55 paladin/weaponmaster is at skill level 8 on regen and it is barely making a difference. Skill level 9 costs 12 skill points and heals 696 health points over 2 minutes. That's not even 350 a minute.

I understand that it is all but impossible to completely balance a game like this and maybe the true classes get most consideration, but as a skill by itself it is just not worth the skill points as you get into higher levels. You'd be better off putting those points elsewhere and buying lots of food.

DeathKnight1728
02-16-2011, 01:40 AM
-The magician needs some sort of magic resistance added to him, as it stands magical traps are almost the biggest killer of chance and it would make sense that the magical spellcaster gets that since he doesnt get a magic mastery.

-Gouge for the trickster is kind of lame. Although your getting a better chance to hit your opponent and crit on them, i find it hard to believe that Gouging someone, doesnt have some bit of damage bonus on it. Even a 1 or 2% damage bonus per level would make sense.

-Sleight of hand should give bonus exp for monsters killing other monsters. That would be the disarm traps skill for the trickster and make sleight of hand an even more reasonable and better skill.

-Make earthquake for the druid class better.

-This has probably been mentioned but.. please redo the warlock summons. They cant handle anything monsters 2 levels higher.

Bluddy
02-16-2011, 02:16 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb and make another comment in this thread :) My rogue has moved on the 10s, and the stealth experience is much better because careless use of it, such as moving in the open around many monsters, not peeking around corners etc. will cause him to be spotted. His limited attack powers mean that he can't fight large groups. Suddenly all those things such as noise levels and search times make a big difference, and the experience is superb.

If this was the desired experience (and I hope it was) then I agree with the original design that he shouldn't have area attack powers. He seems to be designed not to be able to take on massive crowds, preferring to avoid them or take them out one by one. If he's given an area power, it should be expensive and slow so he can't overuse it.

I'm not even sure he should get XP credit for sleight of hand. It's really cool peeking around corners, using it on a boss's goons so they whittle his health down, then going in for the kill. Sleight of hand seems built to make your life as a rogue easier and I'm ok with not getting experience for kills I didn't carry out. I'm also ok with getting little fighting XP since the rogue completes quests faster.

Of course the usual disclaimers apply -- feel free to tell me I'm completely wrong about this, especially at the higher levels.

alstein
02-16-2011, 07:21 AM
-The magician needs some sort of magic resistance added to him, as it stands magical traps are almost the biggest killer of chance and it would make sense that the magical spellcaster gets that since he doesnt get a magic mastery.

-Gouge for the trickster is kind of lame. Although your getting a better chance to hit your opponent and crit on them, i find it hard to believe that Gouging someone, doesnt have some bit of damage bonus on it. Even a 1 or 2% damage bonus per level would make sense.

-Sleight of hand should give bonus exp for monsters killing other monsters. That would be the disarm traps skill for the trickster and make sleight of hand an even more reasonable and better skill.

-Make earthquake for the druid class better.

-This has probably been mentioned but.. please redo the warlock summons. They cant handle anything monsters 2 levels higher.

I'd probably rather see the warlock's non-summoning abilities improve personally.

Let the necromancer be the purer charmie class.

m0stly_harmless
02-16-2011, 09:05 PM
Here's my two cents on things...

I've found that:

(keeping in mind that some of these suggestions are for a non-hybrid character - blending them would make them that much more entertaining)

- The mace, bow & dagger classes of weapons are seriously weak. It makes using characters with this skill unappealing. Requirements for these classes of weapons are too high for the DPS they dish out. (for that matter, their DPS could use a boost too.)
- The plate armour skill is not worth the pain. The requirements to wear the plate compared to their armour points is not worth it. (just like the weapons above.) It should also apply to ALL "warrior" sub-classes and be a "given" skill, like the "attack" skill is, not bought with valuable skill points.
- The Mana regen rate for all classes that have it should be bumped up to a more realistic level, especially since it's mainly for caster classes.
- A weapon master that can't equip staves or bows isn't much of a "weapon master" IMO. (Equip bows at least...)
- Gladiator should be able to equip two-handed weapons (at the sacrifice of equipping a shield).
- Defender's "shield matery" and "blocking" skills are redundant. Combine the two or get rid of one and add an offensive skill.
- Assassin should be able to equip a bow - for that long-distance poke in the back.
- Assassin's skill set is similar mixes of the the same stuff. How about blending some skills from the trickster & thief into it. A good assassin should be able to sneak around and set traps or pick locks.
- Allow the thief to equip short swords.
- The thief should be able to cloak or smoke screen. What's a thief without a little stealth?
- Priests (Paladin, Healer) should be able to equip swords (one & two handers). (think, knight of the round table) Especially considering the mace class of weapons are horrible weapons to start with.
- Shamans should be given an edged weapon option (dagger, short sword).
- Paladins should be given the plate armour option (to be a true paladin).
- Healer's "greater heal", "lesser heal" & "area heal" are overkill. Blend the greater heal & area heal and add an offensive skill.
- The wizard class should be allowed to wear leather armour and maybe use daggers.
- Why does the Ice Mage have a "concentration" skill, but the Fire Mage and Magician do not?
- Allow the Archer to equip an edge weapon.
- Hunter should have a "dead aim" type skill - armour piercing/critical hit type thing. He is a hunter, right?
- The Druid class is a subclass of the ranger, yet cannot equip a bow. Odd. Needs to be changed. Add an edged weapon too.
- The Druid class should have it's basic "Kodiac" and "Stalker" enchantments given a bonus by the weapon (edged gives slashing, mace gives crushing) and armour (better armour bonus with armour worn). This would make the class more entertaining to use.
- The Conjurer class should be allowed to wear leather armour.
- The Necromancer's "Soul Harvest" should also give some health bonus.
- The Necro's "Blight" & "Bone Shatter" DPS should be bumped up a little.
- The Sorcerer's "Thunderbolt" should LIST that it does not always "Freeze Target" anymore - or make it do so (actually, change the term "Freeze" to "Stun" as that's what a thunderbolt would do...). It should also be tied in with lightning mastery. Suggestion: Give it a base "Stun" percentile (say 50%) then make the "Stun" modifier tied in with the "Mastery". The higher the mastery, the better the chance to "Stun" (up to 95%).
- Sorcerer's "Shock Wave" should "Stun" enemies, not "Freeze" them.
- Sorcerer's "Stored Lightning" is pretty useless IMO. Replace with a Lightning based summoned creature seeing as it's the only Conjurer that cannot call up a pet at this point.
- Demonologist's "Demonic Control" should not be time limited. When the pet dies, time to get a new one. Should only affect monsters of the Demon type. Possession should be made BEFORE monster is dead, but NOT when they are at full strength.


*whew* Ok, that's my input for tonight. :eek:

Max_Powers
02-16-2011, 09:28 PM
Adrenaline:

Could it be possible to either have a shorter(even progressively)cool down time, or could it add a movement boost as well? You know, like the whole fight or flight response thing.


Shuriken:

Can either the speed of the shuriken projectile be sped up, or keep the speed the same but limit the projectiles range? This skill, combined with Stealth, are two of my currently favorite skills, so I can't believe I am asking for a potential range limit *shock*

alstein
02-16-2011, 09:40 PM
I'd argue that instead of easing the chain/plate skills, instead buff up those armor pieces to be worth it? Chain by a little, Plate by a lot.

agreed that mace and dagger require too much stat for the DPS. Bow somewhat less so.

Paladins should get swords at least, Shamans daggers perhaps.

mages and daggers- maybe magician and warlock.

druids to me are mages, not rangers. I'd say buff them up some but take leather away from them and give them capes.

I like the idea for demonogist demonic control. Maybe the HP needed for demonic control should be 15%+5% per level? (so under 20% life for lvl 1, 25% for lvl 2)

Bluddy
02-17-2011, 02:35 AM
Just a few reactions to the above suggestions:

- Paladins are classified as priest types in the game. Most games don't do this, but that's the way it is in DC. A generic priest has the paladin tree, and within the genre (and AD&D) priests can generally not use piercing weapons. Don't know if we need to stick to that, but I'm just saying where it comes from.
- Along the same lines, mages traditionally can only use staves. I don't see a problem with that. The idea is that they're really not built for fighting.
- I like shuriken too. I'd actually prefer to see long range weapons not work as well in short range. It doesn't make sense that you can throw a shuriken from 1/2 a meter away and get any sort of powerful hit. That'll severely gimp the ranger, I know, but he can always swap between short and long range weapons, and his goal should be to get far away enough that his long-range weapons can do their thing. Maybe that's making his life too hard though.
- Mace, bow and dagger are supposed to be weaker than the other weapons. Well, maybe mace not so much. Regardless, these are limited weapons for classes that are physically limited, though these weapons have their advantages as well. Daggers are faster so they have a better chance of getting stun, critical hit etc. Bows obviously can hit from far away so it makes sense that they'll be weaker. You need to swap to something short-range to hit for more DPS.
- I did find that the requirements for some of my maces were high, even in the beginning. Something like strength in the low 30s, when priests usually don't have that around level 10 unless they're paladins. Haven't had problems with dagger requirements though (in my limited experience).
- I'm ok with the mana regen level, unless they get dramatically worse later in the game. Mana runs out if you overuse it, as it should. Use a potion to get more of it. If you want regen to be faster, put points into it or get items that boost it. Many games don't even give you mana regen at all.
- The skill trees are split up so that the basic classes have their popular skills spread out around their 3 trees (or at least that's the way it should be). While the trees were given names like assassin, thief, gladiator etc. they're really just a mix of skills. They don't need to overlap (for example the thief skill gets caltrops and lock pick, but not stealth). When you create a hybrid, you get a portion of the base class. It's up to you to find the mix that works for you. I think we want each skill tree to offer something good and interesting, as well as a variety of useful skills, not to make each tree live up to the name it was given, by giving it every skill it sounds like it should have. That applies to active skills like stealth (which the 'Thief' tree doesn't have) and it applies to armor/weapon skills too.
- As another example, I don't think the druid needs to have the bow skill just because it's under ranger. If you take the ranger class, you'll get the druid skills. If you just pick the druid tree for your hybrid, you'll get the set of skills that a 'druid' encompasses, which even from the perspective of the proverbial druid doesn't necessitate bows.

As a final comment, I just want to remind everyone that the expansion is very close to release (as in a week or less). Dramatic rebalancing of basic game dynamics won't lead to balance but only to chaos. What we're looking for is suggestions for tweaking certain skills to make them more useful, or perhaps in some dramatic situations, switching a weak, useless skill with a different, more useful one. I think that's how we can help Shadow the most.

Bluddy
02-17-2011, 02:58 AM
Now to my own little comment. I made a warrior/druid, and I have to say the druid is a boring class. The highlight is clearly meant to be turning into other animals, but it's not too useful to be a kodiak, and the experience is quite... uninteresting. I'd much rather turn into a mystery creature -- have it be luck of the draw! I could turn into a useless imp or into a liche if I get lucky. Maybe not, I guess the undead shouldn't be an option. Since we have 2 morphing skills, one could be completely random for longer, while the other could guarantee turning into something stronger, but for a shorter amount of time.

Nim
02-17-2011, 04:31 AM
Guys, you know that you can use strength/dexterity potions to equip those high requirement weapons ? They won't unequip when the potion runs out.

- I'm ok with the mana regen level, unless they get dramatically worse later in the game. Mana runs out if you overuse it, as it should. You should really play more before making statements like that. Mana regen on single items can go over 20, IIRC Nobear found a 27 manareg item ? Mana should only run out in the early game or if you're up against mana burners.

Bluddy
02-17-2011, 04:33 AM
You should really play more before making statements like that. Mana regen on single items can go over 20, IIRC Nobear found a 27 manareg item ? Mana should only run out in the early game or if you're up against mana burners.

OK then you only strengthen my point. Mana regen is high enough as it is, and maybe those items should even be nerfed. Or maybe the mana cost of the powerful spells/skills at higher levels should be raised.

Crisses
02-17-2011, 07:52 AM
OK then you only strengthen my point. Mana regen is high enough as it is, and maybe those items should even be nerfed. Or maybe the mana cost of the powerful spells/skills at higher levels should be raised.

At least in a mid-level game, mana runs out plenty without any nerfing. Depends on the size of the hordes you're going after mostly, but it can also take many spells/skill uses to knock down the baddies. I'm not playing a pure spell-casting class, whom I would assume have it better because they'd be pumping more points into Int & Spirit & have their tree bonuses for regen -- regardless regen is for between battles, having a huge pool of mana from which to draw doesn't mean that you won't empty it when you walk into a big room or take on bigger critters.

I have heard the complaint that a warrior with a big sword has it much easier towards DC endgame than a spell-class. The h2h classes can spread their skill points around (pouring just a few levels into the skills doubles or triples your base weapon damage -- so just pick up a high DPS weapon and wade through a horde like butter, especially with whirlwind or similar), the mage classes need to pour nearly all their points into a much more narrow range of skills to survive -- i.e. the linear progression of the spells stacking can't keep up with moderate modifiers on big-weapon damages. Perhaps there needs to be staff/dagger/mace/bow(?) modifiers on skills i.e. +200% extra fire damage, +300% extra magic damage, +400% healing -- specifically to make these types of weapons more "yummy" to the spellcasting classes AND to make lugging them around at all useful (similar to the +skill items in Diablo -- sorry, I said the D word) since you're probably not using them in combat. i.e. the balance would be to make an external item helpful to the base skills of the classes. "Staff of the Ice Mage" or something. If the game already has this in it, I apologize -- having only made it to around lvl 43, I haven't seen anything like it. So either these items drop very rarely in a lvl 50 game (I've been playing 50 elite & champion) or they just aren't there.

If possible, find a way to add in Poison Mastery on the Assassin or Shaman tree, I think.

Crisses
02-17-2011, 08:04 AM
Another thought: Warlock's "Demon Mastery" could also apply to Demonologist "Demonic Control" & "Possession" -- making for an interesting hybrid combo. Increase the % damage of a Possessed demonologist, and the % damage of the controlled demon.

On the mastery skills -- I didn't have DC open to look at the skill tree at the time. The Mastery skills seem seriously nerfed. I was generous when I said +25%.

m0stly_harmless
02-17-2011, 09:45 AM
Just you you guys know, just because I have a low post count, doesn't mean I know nothing of the Dungeon Crawler genre. I've been playing these games since back in the haydays of the 386 computers... My posts reflect some of that experience. At the end of the day, I want what we all want - a really cool game!

- I'm ok with the mana regen level, unless they get dramatically worse later in the game. Mana runs out if you overuse it, as it should. Use a potion to get more of it. If you want regen to be faster, put points into it or get items that boost it. Many games don't even give you mana regen at all.

This one comment gives me a pretty good idea that you haven't tinkered with spellcasters in this game. The mana burn does get worse as the level of monsters rises (as someone pointed out already). The cost of the spellcasting rises, mana burn from monsters rise, mana regen seriously lags behind. Ultimately rendering your caster pretty useless very quickly in the heat of a battle. Base mana regen needs to be addressed, IMO.

- The skill trees are split up so that the basic classes have their popular skills spread out around their 3 trees (or at least that's the way it should be). While the trees were given names like assassin, thief, gladiator etc. they're really just a mix of skills. They don't need to overlap (for example the thief skill gets caltrops and lock pick, but not stealth). When you create a hybrid, you get a portion of the base class. It's up to you to find the mix that works for you. I think we want each skill tree to offer something good and interesting, as well as a variety of useful skills, not to make each tree live up to the name it was given, by giving it every skill it sounds like it should have. That applies to active skills like stealth (which the 'Thief' tree doesn't have) and it applies to armor/weapon skills too.

You're forgetting that I made a note at the beginning of my post saying that the comments were based on a PURE character of said class.

- As another example, I don't think the druid needs to have the bow skill just because it's under ranger. If you take the ranger class, you'll get the druid skills. If you just pick the druid tree for your hybrid, you'll get the set of skills that a 'druid' encompasses, which even from the perspective of the proverbial druid doesn't necessitate bows.

Perhaps in your game. I feel the Druid needs to bring something extra to the table to make him worthwhile to play as his current skill sets are lackluster, IMO.

As a final comment, I just want to remind everyone that the expansion is very close to release (as in a week or less). Dramatic rebalancing of basic game dynamics won't lead to balance but only to chaos.

All the more reason for polishing up the characters a little better. A better character template will only attract more players. Besides, if you haven't noticed, all the current "rebalancing" of skills, food and economics HAS already created your "chaos". Why do you think these threads came to light?!

The great thing about this game is the DEV is actually listening to his players and some of the suggestions we make. We're all in this together to make this the best game it can possibly be.

Guys, you know that you can use strength/dexterity potions to equip those high requirement weapons ? They won't unequip when the potion runs out.

Well aware of that. Seeing as that's considered a little bit of a cheat, not all of us use it. That's why we're asking for some tweaking of the requirements for these relatively poorly balanced items. Example: if you're a level 16 CHAR, you have 25 DEX and find a dagger with a reasonable DPS but a DEX requirement of 68, good luck finding a DEX potion you can use to make up the difference at your current level.

OK then you only strengthen my point. Mana regen is high enough as it is, and maybe those items should even be nerfed. Or maybe the mana cost of the powerful spells/skills at higher levels should be raised.

Another statement that makes me believe that you don't use casters. It strenghtens my earlier comment. Mana costs seem fine, Mana regen needs to be tweaked.

Bluddy
02-17-2011, 10:43 AM
This one comment gives me a pretty good idea that you haven't tinkered with spellcasters in this game. The mana burn does get worse as the level of monsters rises (as someone pointed out already). The cost of the spellcasting rises, mana burn from monsters rise, mana regen seriously lags behind. Ultimately rendering your caster pretty useless very quickly in the heat of a battle. Base mana regen needs to be addressed, IMO.

I've tinkered, but not that much. I think what we can see though is that different users are having different experiences in the later levels from the other feedbacks that people reported. All I want is for Shadow to see the variety of responses. I admitted from the beginning my experience is limited.

You're forgetting that I made a note at the beginning of my post saying that the comments were based on a PURE character of said class.

Sorry. Large post and I totally missed that.

Perhaps in your game. I feel the Druid needs to bring something extra to the table to make him worthwhile to play as his current skill sets are lackluster, IMO.

I agree and you'll note I posted about that too. The druid's boring.

All the more reason for polishing up the characters a little better. A better character template will only attract more players. Besides, if you haven't noticed, all the current "rebalancing" of skills, food and economics HAS already created your "chaos". Why do you think these threads came to light?!

I think a lot of systems have been tweaked already. For example the town events system seems quite enjoyable right now. What I meant to say is that, in order to tweak a system, you need to control some variables. If everything is open to changes, getting a balance will be very difficult. Also, though many people are suggesting many changes, in reality fewer need to be made because one variable affects others.

The great thing about this game is the DEV is actually listening to his players and some of the suggestions we make. We're all in this together to make this the best game it can possibly be.

Agree completely.

Well aware of that. Seeing as that's considered a little bit of a cheat, not all of us use it. That's why we're asking for some tweaking of the requirements for these relatively poorly balanced items. Example: if you're a level 16 CHAR, you have 25 DEX and find a dagger with a reasonable DPS but a DEX requirement of 68, good luck finding a DEX potion you can use to make up the difference at your current level.

The question is, is finding a dagger with super high requirements a systematic problem, or did the game just randomly give you a weapon that you can use later on, or hand to another character via the stash, which is OK? I've encountered some high requirement items that I could grow into, and some that were just 'accidental' drops or drops for much later. I either put them in my stash for later or in the shared stash.

Another statement that makes me believe that you don't use casters. It strenghtens my earlier comment. Mana costs seem fine, Mana regen needs to be tweaked.

Maybe. I can't really tell. Shadow made fairly big changes to creatures' magic resistance. Following those changes, I asked folks here if the problem for magic users had been resolved in later levels in another thread, since this was one of the major problems of the game after crazy NPCs. I didn't get too much feedback, but the feedback that I did get was positive. It's possible that the long-time users of the game missed that thread. If this is the case though and magic users are STILL at a big disadvantage later on, then I agree that needs to be taken care of, whichever way Shadow chooses to do so.

Regardless, we all appreciate your and everyone else's input, because as you say, we all want the game to be as good as it can be.

m0stly_harmless
02-17-2011, 04:29 PM
I've tinkered, but not that much. I think what we can see though is that different users are having different experiences in the later levels from the other feedbacks that people reported. All I want is for Shadow to see the variety of responses. I admitted from the beginning my experience is limited.

I'm cool with that. I'm sure Shadow sees all the responses. I'm sure he appreciates it when someone who's abused (:D) his game as much as my brother and I have chimes in on something.

Sorry. Large post and I totally missed that.

Forgiven. We'll spare you the 10 lashes this time. :p

I agree and you'll note I posted about that too. The druid's boring.

I'm hoping that some of the suggestions that have come up in regards to some of these "boring" variants can be made before the final proof of the beta is released. It'll bring so much more to the gameplay. (and give me *cough* us a crapload of new character variants to mess with seeing as we'll actually want to use them!! :cool:)


I think a lot of systems have been tweaked already. For example the town events system seems quite enjoyable right now. What I meant to say is that, in order to tweak a system, you need to control some variables. If everything is open to changes, getting a balance will be very difficult. Also, though many people are suggesting many changes, in reality fewer need to be made because one variable affects others.

... and that's why I think the bag drops and special weapons drops have broken. Something affected something else and since installing DW, I've YET to see a set item drop - and any real elite or artifact type goodies.

Before the DW addon, I was rocking it with great armour and weapons! Now, not so much.

Agree completely.

Perfect.

The question is, is finding a dagger with super high requirements a systematic problem, or did the game just randomly give you a weapon that you can use later on, or hand to another character via the stash, which is OK? I've encountered some high requirement items that I could grow into, and some that were just 'accidental' drops or drops for much later. I either put them in my stash for later or in the shared stash.

Same as mentioned above. Since DW, special types of goodies were abundant, now, not so much. Even before the DW addon though, (good) maces, daggers and bows were so horribly hard to come by that it made using those characters pointless up until you found one. THEN, you had to deal with absurdly high dex & strength requirements comapred to the level of character you had. Factor in some DPS that didn't jive with the level requirements and I'd just end up selling the thing and sticking with a sword or axe. Kinda sucked the fun out of some characters for me (and I'm sure I'm not alone).

Maybe. I can't really tell. Shadow made fairly big changes to creatures' magic resistance. Following those changes, I asked folks here if the problem for magic users had been resolved in later levels in another thread, since this was one of the major problems of the game after crazy NPCs. I didn't get too much feedback, but the feedback that I did get was positive. It's possible that the long-time users of the game missed that thread. If this is the case though and magic users are STILL at a big disadvantage later on, then I agree that needs to be taken care of, whichever way Shadow chooses to do so.

I musta missed that thread... But yes, magic users are still at a disadvantage when you combine a horde of monsters, high cost spells, maybe some mana-burning enemies and very little mana regeneration abilities (whether skill generated or weapon/armour generated).

That's why making a hybrid magic user/magic user is complete sillyness at the moment. They can't defend themselves worth beans and burn through mana like a fat kid on smarties.

Regardless, we all appreciate your and everyone else's input, because as you say, we all want the game to be as good as it can be.

You're quite welcome and yes we do. It's nice to be a part of a great game!

Max_Powers
02-17-2011, 07:05 PM
Well aware of that. Seeing as that's considered a little bit of a cheat, not all of us use it. That's why we're asking for some tweaking of the requirements for these relatively poorly balanced items. Example: if you're a level 16 CHAR, you have 25 DEX and find a dagger with a reasonable DPS but a DEX requirement of 68, good luck finding a DEX potion you can use to make up the difference at your current level.

This is something that I wish would get fixed. From playing other games in which you become encumbered this situation just makes no sense. I also do not use it for the same reason.

alstein
02-20-2011, 03:13 AM
I still think the dex requirements for daggers is too high.

After playing around a bit more with the current patch.

I think things are improved- though shamans do definitely need something.

High prayer- perhaps make it percentage based, with levels reducing the recharge time, instead of a flat +hp/+mana?

I think they still are in need of another skill, though part of me thinks a good idea for a 2nd expansion to Din's would be adding skills to classes.

Maybe buff those resistance skills to also give a buff effect that give elemental damage to your weapon, improvable by level as well. Magitek's mod gives the healer a magic damage version of this. This is probably too much for a 2pt skill, maybe raise it to 3 or 4pts? Skills should stay linked though.

for an additional skill- maybe give them another blessing that's mage-friendly, maybe have it reduce casting time.

One thing that might help in figuring out what needs buffing is to see which classes people feel are strongest and weakest?

Crisses
02-20-2011, 08:41 AM
This is something that I wish would get fixed. From playing other games in which you become encumbered this situation just makes no sense. I also do not use it for the same reason.

I don't use it either. It's nice (convenient but cheat-ish) when I've UNequipped something with a +STR/+DEX and it doesn't disable something I already have equipped. But I don't use pots to arm things with ridiculously higher requirements. Actually, I don't really use stat/resist pots at all. And I don't think the game mechanics should REQUIRE that you do so. There's already so many health/mana potions + food combinations that I find 1/3rd my inventory taken up with that nonsense. I've taken up a hand-me-down food pantry in my shared stash because it's not worth turning in old food/drinks/pots at the merchants. Adding in "quality" versions of food doubled the ridiculousness of this.

timeh
02-20-2011, 12:38 PM
specifically to make these types of weapons more "yummy" to the spellcasting classes AND to make lugging them around at all useful

i don't even consider weapons other than staff anymore, for any toon

awesome damage considering the dex required, and if you can find one with good +weapon speed you're laughing

the one i'm passing around at the moment is 80 dex required, just shy of 300dps, 0.6ish speed with rank 14 lifesteal proc... with other stash items and a pot i can wear it before level 10 :D

DeathKnight1728
02-20-2011, 01:30 PM
i don't even consider weapons other than staff anymore, for any toon

awesome damage considering the dex required, and if you can find one with good +weapon speed you're laughing

the one i'm passing around at the moment is 80 dex required, just shy of 300dps, 0.6ish speed with rank 14 lifesteal proc... with other stash items and a pot i can wear it before level 10 :D

I will eventually make some sort of reaver staff wielder build. Maybe reaver/shaman or reaver/magician. Something that has a staff but comes with defenses. It definitely seem like staffs are a good choice for weapons.

Pyro
02-21-2011, 01:35 AM
I've taken up a hand-me-down food pantry in my shared stash because it's not worth turning in old food/drinks/pots at the merchants. Adding in "quality" versions of food doubled the ridiculousness of this.

I would rather have the "quality" food versions cover levels 75-150+ (assuming we can have dungeon levels over 100 later).