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Bluddy
02-21-2011, 04:17 AM
Hey guys. Here's the problem: Shadow makes some balancing tweaks, which we then test. But there aren't that many of us, and we each have characters of different kinds at different levels (and with different items). As our characters go up in level, they become good for testing a specific level but not another. That means we don't really get to test how effective the change was, and we miss remaining imbalances or even worse -- new imbalances that were created by the changes.

My suggestion is this: let's create a testing framework. We'll unite our characters and save them on this thread at their current levels (and as they advance) so they can enable further testing. We'll post characters of different types at different level intervals, so we can all check how the game is for different classes at different levels. If someone detects an imbalance, he/she can state which testing character had the issue and at which level, and others can test it. Just remember that test characters that don't belong to you are not your characters to play with online, since that wouldn't be nice ;) Testing with a character should not require more playtime than is needed to go up 1-2 levels (at most). Once you're done, you can re-download the old version of the character again so it's ready for further testing.

I think it's a good idea to post your original character every 15 levels or so, as that gives a good spread of levels. We should also post by need: if you see a conjurer class is already posted, there's no need to post your own unless your level/skill-set/item-set is substantially different than that of the already-posted character.

What do you think???

Crisses
02-21-2011, 10:32 AM
I think that's a reasonable idea if we're really dedicated to playtesting.

Me, I'm a sole-proprietor of my own business. I don't have time to playtest more than I can play. :) But I like helping out and pitching in.

So what I did yesterday was create a 2nd playtest install of DC (without Din's Additionals) and modded the game for accelerated play. I'm currently playtesting a pure Conjurer, for example, and in a couple hours I brought it up to level 32. (I changed the per-level XP so it would level faster, and the time to open chests, identify etc. because I personally don't want to be sitting around for artificial suspense activities -- I also modded drops which I'll post in a separate thread because I think item-type (not level) drops are backwards). I want to pull this character to the upper levels quickly to test endgame & a "pure spellcaster" build. Does it get boring? Is it too limited to survive?

Even though I leveled fast through the 20s, I still died plenty while still having enough "Stuff to do". I'm cramming nearly all my points into a narrow number of skills, to keep up with the baddies. Not able to have as much skill variety as the Rogue or fighters.

So right now I can (Necromancer) Raise Dead on 3 critters (+ some in Lich), I have a moderately high Blight, (Warlock) I can Summon Chaos Lord (+1 in Demon Mastery), (Sorceror) and I can Tornado. So basically I run into a crowded room with 4 tough goons and spam the crowd with debuff & area damage while they clean up. I happened on a staff that's good enough that I can knock heads around too, especially heads that are already hurting from everything else going on. It's a decent mid-game caster strategy. I'll have to test the Wizard & Priest class for playability too. I'll have to take it to the higher levels to see what endgame is like for this class. At any point I can drop my changes that accelerate the game and see "what it's really like" when I'm not leveling up every 10 minutes.

Testing non-hybrid casters seems to be one of the places we're all missing. I'll post the relevant changes to my game so people can rush-test if needed/desired.

Crisses
02-21-2011, 10:38 AM
If you just want to playtest more than play, here's the changes to "accelerate" game play. I didn't change the # skill or stat points you get per level, just made it faster to level up and faster to "hurry up and wait" while opening chests or identifying items. I basically just did this to save time. Hope it helps!


XesSystem overrides GameSystem
{

MinIdentifyTime 0.25
BaseIdentifyTime 1.0
IdentifyTimeIncreasePerLevel 0.25

MinChestOpenTime 0.25
BaseChestOpenTime 1.0
ChestOpenTimeIncreasePerLevel 0.25

BaseXpNeededEachLevel 1000.0

XpMultEachLevel1 1.25
XpMultEachLevel4 1.125
XpMultEachLevel6 1.075
XpMultEachLevel11 1.05
XpMultEachLevel21 1.025

BaseReputationNeededEachLevel 1000.0

ReputationMultEachLevel1 1.25
ReputationMultEachLevel4 1.125
ReputationMultEachLevel6 1.075
ReputationMultEachLevel11 1.05
ReputationMultEachLevel21 1.025

}

Bluddy
02-21-2011, 11:36 AM
Very cool idea, though there's a slight problem: the dungeon doesn't get powerful fast enough to reflect the real difficulty. You character's leveling up faster and can therefore tear through a dungeon that was created for it 5 levels ago, but usually a character has to level up slowly, dealing with tougher monsters (relatively) as a result.

Hopefully we could split up testing between volunteers so it doesn't take much time. Instead of people overlapping with their characters, we could split up the levels/classes: 5-10 minutes each on 2 testing classes per person is all that's needed.

Crisses
02-21-2011, 12:02 PM
Very cool idea, though there's a slight problem: the dungeon doesn't get powerful fast enough to reflect the real difficulty. You character's leveling up faster and can therefore tear through a dungeon that was created for it 5 levels ago, but usually a character has to level up slowly, dealing with tougher monsters (relatively) as a result.

Hopefully we could split up testing between volunteers so it doesn't take much time. Instead of people overlapping with their characters, we could split up the levels/classes: 5-10 minutes each on 2 testing classes per person is all that's needed.

I purposefully play dungeons a minimum of 4 levels above my own to help with this problem. It starts out harder but balances out quickly enough. I'm not lingering -- just get it done with.

Crisses
02-21-2011, 12:24 PM
My problem is my ego. Admitted, right up front. I come up with an idea of a character, I play that character with that personality/motivation in mind, and I become "attached" to the character. When you grow with the character, you figure out how to combine spells/skills in a certain way, you aim for say item/magic find vs. armor, or high resistances, or whatever when you choose items.

Picking up someone's level 60 character and running with it will NOT convey -- to me -- how that character is balanced. I didn't choose those skills, and I didn't arm them. I don't have 60 levels of experience with them. So how do I know how well they play? It's going to be more work for me than just 10 minutes of playing with that character to really get a feel for them.

The way I'm doing it, I can bring the character up to 60 then drop the "cheat" and actually play the character through some number of levels of a dungeon at their level. Then I can do it again at level 75 & 90. It's not a bad idea to snapshot the character now at like level 32 also, and again around 45 -- that part of your idea i like, and I wouldn't mind sharing the character/build for others to take it for a stroll. But we all have different playing styles just like I have a dvorak keyboard layout and have my hotkeys set up a certain way. :)

The question isn't whether someone can come in cold-turkey at level 45 and clear a room with this character. The question is whether someone playing them who has played them for 45 levels can clear a room without it being TOO easy OR too hard. I don't play for speed. I'm not a button-masher (too much RSI for that!). I'd rather play smart than play hard. If someone prefers hacknslash/button mashing/real-time gaming -- then my character builds wouldn't be for them. :)

So here's this character: "Sauron" pure Conjurer. Blatant plagiarism. He summons his ring wraiths, raises dead big powerful things as his allys, posions the room, and has a whirling wind with a big red eye in the middle of it. He couldn't give a squat about that piddly god Din, but he's kinda in a no-choice position at the moment -- so he's going to play along, just like when he gave the pretty rings to the elves, and make nice-nice with the townsfolk so he can build up their trust while he amasses his power -- then he's going to take them down as an inside job -- and rule the world. Muhahahah! [if you don't know Sauron's back-story, plod through Tolkein's Silmarilion]

Attached: Sauron Level 34 Conjurer. His items may be more powerful than they should be -- accidentally bumped up their stats. :/

DeathKnight1728
02-21-2011, 01:49 PM
This is a good idea, I will post 1 of my characters when i get back on tonight. Im currently working on a thief/sorcerer who is 21 right now. He can usually do levels 6 higher than him but i am going to try and do 8-10 levels higher (at nobears advice) once i get to the next difficulty. I love the fact that the difficulty gets more intense the higher you go. Unlike in other games, where there is no point in going past lvl 40.

DeathKnight1728
02-21-2011, 08:57 PM
This is the upload for the Character Repository. He is a lvl 21, Sorcerer/thief hybrid.

Crisses
02-21-2011, 09:18 PM
See, I did it again. I had another idea for a character. What would a character that ONLY had passive skills look like? Is there a hybrid or pure-class that would be able to pull that off? I was inspired by this Level 100 video. I can't figure out whether this person is using any skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84AeXBv5flc

DeathKnight1728
02-21-2011, 09:49 PM
If they ever make the concentrations for the thief class reasonable, you could use a thief/thief with concentrations speed and double dagger mastery, plus combat reflexes, traps. You'd have the fastest dps ever and hack everything to pieces.

Edit-The character in the video is actually only using passives. You can do it with that combo as well. You use armor piercing, precision, bow mastery, critical aim, dodge, and eagle eye. Talk about a critical master. This guy could snipe like no other.

DeathKnight1728
02-21-2011, 10:32 PM
See, I did it again. I had another idea for a character. What would a character that ONLY had passive skills look like? Is there a hybrid or pure-class that would be able to pull that off? I was inspired by this Level 100 video. I can't figure out whether this person is using any skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84AeXBv5flc

Now you got it caught in my head :)

Paladin/Assassin-loads of passives from both classes. If you get a lifesteal dagger that is mid level, and stack up with all the offensive passives from the assassin, add the defenses of shield mastery, and some offense of crushing blow, stunning blow from the paladin. Put all attributes in strength and dex, with the rest in vit. Not a bad deal. I dont know how well it would work at endgame but maybe it might work. I think you'd need that lifesteal dagger if it was going to work at all.

Bluddy
02-22-2011, 04:06 PM
C'mon guys I know someone out there has a high level warrior with mail/plate he/she wants to post to the repository... I really want to see those high level armor stats.

DeathKnight1728
02-22-2011, 06:59 PM
Does it have to be a fighter with mail armor. What lvl is high?

Bluddy
02-22-2011, 11:57 PM
Any character is welcome, but in particular I'm looking for 30+ characters with some or all mail/plate armor. Basically I want to see some of the highest armor values the game can reach.

Despair
02-23-2011, 01:00 AM
Hey guys :] i'm starting a defender/healer for the thread purpose.

she is level 4 at the moment.

Baki
02-23-2011, 01:24 AM
Any character is welcome, but in particular I'm looking for 30+ characters with some or all mail/plate armor. Basically I want to see some of the highest armor values the game can reach.

i think at avg you could easily reach 300 armor per equipment piece at lvl 100.

+200% armor also shouldnt be that hard to get for a lvl 100 warrior.

8x300*3=7200 armor

Ok, this is my first character and I recently came back to him to get him to 100. I'm really proud of him, because notice that he has 100% Crit, Crush AND Deep Wounds! I had to settle for lower numbers to get 100% Deep Wounds, by wearing Yuxi's Gloves instead of Degol's, putting less points in Strength and more in Dexterity, and putting more skill points in Crushing Blow and Bleed. Can the Bleed skill be brought up to 20% to be in line with the Crushing Blow one, pretty please? :)

Anyway, after some limited testing after getting to 100% Deep Wounds, I love it so far. Yes, my damage is less, but I can still one-shot most monsters with whirlwind, and those who survive the initial hit soon die to Deep Wounds. Also, my chance to be hit is only 57% normally or 6% (SIX!) with Block, and my chance to hit is 94%, not counting that Perfect Strike triples my Attack. With the armor changes, I could no longer one-shot bosses even before getting 100% Deep Wounds, but with the Deep Wounds my boss DPS should be pretty sweet.

Overall I love the way the armor change feels. Yes my DPS is nerfed, but I don't get one-shot, so boss fights have gone from "please Din let me get the first hit against this guy so I don't insta-die" to "let me actually use some strategy involving movement, multiple attacks and Block". It's a lot more fun, and bosses feel more like they should: epic but neither one-shotting nor one-shottable.

OldcheeseLevel 100 Warrior (Din's Legend)Stats

Health: 2150 / 2753
Mana: 559 / 559

Attack: 2584
Defense: 850
Armor: 4211

Damage: 638 - 3200
Dps: 1442.9

Reputation Level: 31

Money: 5GP 50SP 47CP

Attributes

Strength: 299
Dexterity: 234
Vitality: 406
Intelligence: 150
Spirit: 109

Points Left: 0

Resistances

Fire Resistance: 53
Cold Resistance: 65
Poison Resistance: 49
Lightning Resistance: 72
Magic Resistance: 78

Skills

Whirlwind lvl 11
Perfect Strike lvl 18
Arms Mastery lvl 6
Axe Mastery lvl 15
Bleed lvl 15
Focus: Absorb Damage lvl 17
Focus: Deal Damage lvl 17
Focus: Rage lvl 17
Crushing Blow lvl 11
Blocking lvl 1
Plate Armor lvl 4
Block lvl 17

Points Left: 0

Equipment

Imperial Helmet
Platinum Helmet
Rarity: Legendary Basic Type: Plate
Durability 76 / 76
468 armor
+19 Vitality
+15 Intelligence
+21 Spirit
+233 Attack
+40 Armor
+27 Magic Resistance
+200% armor
Requires 210 Strength
Requires armor skill: Plate
Sell value: 1GP 9SP 49CP
Retail value: 21GP 89SP 96CP

Amulet of Wounding
Necklace
Rarity: Artifact
+38 Strength
+16 Dexterity
+430 Attack
Requires level 63
Sell value: 34SP 90CP
Retail value: 6GP 98SP

Titanium Pauldron
Rarity: Very Rare Basic Type: Plate
Durability 84 / 84
92 armor
+11 Strength
+11 Dexterity
+32 Vitality
+30 Intelligence
+11 Spirit
+10% armor
2.9% chance to cast level 19 Disease when hit
Requires 225 Strength
Requires armor skill: Plate
Sell value: 56SP 31CP
Retail value: 11GP 26SP 33CP

Sven's Breastplate
Titanium Breastplate
Rarity: Set Basic Type: Plate
Durability 81 / 81
581 armor
+29 Strength
+19 Vitality
+185% armor

Sven's Set: Sven's Helmet,
Sven's Pauldron, Sven's Breastplate,
Sven's Belt, Sven's Legplates,
Sven's Boots, Sven's Vambrace,
Sven's Gauntlets, Sven's Amulet,
Sven's Gold Ring, Sven's Silver Ring

With 3 items:
+24 Strength
+24 Vitality

With 7 items:
+48 Strength
+48 Vitality

With all 11 items:
+48 Strength
+48 Dexterity
+48 Vitality

Requires 225 Strength
Requires armor skill: Plate
Sell value: 1GP 28SP 99CP
Retail value: 25GP 79SP 85CP

Quicksilver Vambrace
Rarity: Very Rare Basic Type: Plate
Durability 77 / 77
38 armor
+35 Strength
+20 Dexterity
+20 Vitality
+20 Intelligence
+20 Spirit
+24 Magic Resistance
+10% armor
Requires 201 Strength
Requires armor skill: Plate
Sell value: 37SP 48CP
Retail value: 7GP 49SP 66CP

Yuxi's Gloves
Woven Gloves
Rarity: Elite Basic Type: Cloth
Durability 27 / 27
24 armor
+3 Mana Regen
+5 Fire Resistance
+5 Cold Resistance
+5 Poison Resistance
+5 Lightning Resistance
+70% Deep Wounds
+100% armor
1.5% chance to cast level 4 Mana Steal on successful hit
Requires level 17
Requires armor skill: Cloth
Sell value: 3SP 67CP
Retail value: 38SP 84CP

Sven's Belt
Titanium Girdle
Rarity: Set Basic Type: Plate
Durability 83 / 83
76 armor
+42 Vitality
+11 Intelligence
+14 Armor
+20% armor

Sven's Set: Sven's Helmet,
Sven's Pauldron, Sven's Breastplate,
Sven's Belt, Sven's Legplates,
Sven's Boots, Sven's Vambrace,
Sven's Gauntlets, Sven's Amulet,
Sven's Gold Ring, Sven's Silver Ring

With 3 items:
+24 Strength
+24 Vitality

With 7 items:
+48 Strength
+48 Vitality

With all 11 items:
+48 Strength
+48 Dexterity
+48 Vitality

Requires 225 Strength
Requires armor skill: Plate
Sell value: 13SP 50CP
Retail value: 2GP 70SP 16CP

Sven's Legplates
Titanium Legplates
Rarity: Set Basic Type: Plate
Durability 70 / 70
413 armor
+23 Intelligence
+23 Poison Resistance
+30% Magic Find Chance
+163% armor

Sven's Set: Sven's Helmet,
Sven's Pauldron, Sven's Breastplate,
Sven's Belt, Sven's Legplates,
Sven's Boots, Sven's Vambrace,
Sven's Gauntlets, Sven's Amulet,
Sven's Gold Ring, Sven's Silver Ring

With 3 items:
+24 Strength
+24 Vitality

With 7 items:
+48 Strength
+48 Vitality

With all 11 items:
+48 Strength
+48 Dexterity
+48 Vitality

Requires 225 Strength
Requires armor skill: Plate
Sell value: 64SP 1CP
Retail value: 12GP 80SP 29CP

Turak
Quicksilver Boots
Rarity: Artifact Basic Type: Plate
Durability 90 / 90
362 armor
+12 Dexterity
+15 Intelligence
+16 Defense
+27 Magic Resistance
+317% armor
Requires 195 Strength
Requires armor skill: Plate
Sell value: 55SP 1CP
Retail value: 11GP 30CP

Fryse's Blue Ring
Ring
Rarity: Elite
+6 Dexterity
+6 Intelligence
+16 Cold Resistance
+16 Light Intensity
+150% Critical Hit
+150% Magic Critical Hit
Requires level 26
Sell value: 5SP 23CP
Retail value: 1GP 4SP 68CP

Viedonna's Kiss
Ring
Rarity: Artifact
+14 Strength
+201 Max Health
+27 Fire Resistance
+23 Cold Resistance
Requires level 72
Sell value: 48SP 73CP
Retail value: 9GP 74SP 72CP

Thaden's Thunder
Jewelry
Rarity: Elite
+23 Strength
+18 Spirit
+233 Attack
+61 Max Health
+23 Lightning Resistance
Requires level 72
Sell value: 38SP 22CP
Retail value: 7GP 64SP 52CP

Thaden's Thunder
Jewelry
Rarity: Elite
+23 Strength
+18 Spirit
+233 Attack
+61 Max Health
+23 Lightning Resistance
Requires level 72
Sell value: 38SP 22CP
Retail value: 7GP 64SP 52CP

Decapitator
Executioner Axe
Rarity: Legendary Basic Type: Two-Handed Axe
Durability 85 / 85
Two-handed
105 to 527 Damage Speed 1.33
237.6 damage per second
+14 Intelligence
+16 Spirit
+20 Min Damage
+36 Max Damage
+220% Critical Hit
+220% Magic Critical Hit
+35% damage
+205% maximum damage
Requires 150 Strength
Requires 150 Dexterity
Requires weapon skill: Two Handed Axe
Sell value: 89SP 51CP
Retail value: 17GP 90SP 20CP



[/URL]

Crisses
02-23-2011, 01:35 AM
I never take the Plate or Mail skill perhaps because I don't understand the wording on it. Do you get full normal armor benefit AND an additional bonus to it for the skill? I thought at first you'd get say 5% of the bonus of Plate. It's like "Why bother?" Now I realize I probably mis-understood it and it's Plate Armor Bonus +5% (i.e. 105% of the normal plate armor bonus)

If that's the case, it changes everything and almost makes having a class that must buy (plate or mail) a better bargain than those who just have it included.

Baki
02-23-2011, 01:50 AM
if you get your first point in the plate skill from the defender tree you will be able to wear plate and you will get an overall armor bonus of 5%. no matter if you use plate or leather.

Despair
02-23-2011, 04:10 AM
Same character lvl 13 now with plate skill and enought STR to wear some.

so far no big trouble except a boss group with a red rylor (ouch).

Crisses
02-23-2011, 09:34 AM
Now you got it caught in my head :)

Paladin/Assassin-loads of passives from both classes. If you get a lifesteal dagger that is mid level, and stack up with all the offensive passives from the assassin, add the defenses of shield mastery, and some offense of crushing blow, stunning blow from the paladin. Put all attributes in strength and dex, with the rest in vit. Not a bad deal. I dont know how well it would work at endgame but maybe it might work. I think you'd need that lifesteal dagger if it was going to work at all.

I'm trying out weaponmaster/paladin for much the same reasons. Lots o damage building options, decent defense options. i.e. a tank.

Shadow
02-23-2011, 10:22 AM
Baki is correct. At level 1 plate armor skill you can wear plate, get the full benefit of any type of armor, and get a 5% armor bonus regardless of what kind of armor you are wearing.

Crisses
02-23-2011, 12:53 PM
Baki is correct. At level 1 plate armor skill you can wear plate, get the full benefit of any type of armor, and get a 5% armor bonus regardless of what kind of armor you are wearing.

That was SO unclear to me! Changes everything. I avoided taking the skill thinking it would take 10-20 skill levels to take advantage of the full benefits of the armor type. Thx.