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DeathKnight1728
02-23-2011, 12:58 PM
-Someone recently made mention of having certain armor absorbing a certain amount. Cloth-10-20%, Leather-30-40%, Mail 50-60%, and Plate-70%. I think this would be good and would make sense. I know that a lot of people are saying that too much balance is bad but it doesnt make sense when certain leather armors have more armor than platemail. Especially taking into effect the no strength requirement. I think leather and cloth would be good if you arent going to be putting points into strength. However, if you are going to be wearing plate or mail, you should get some added protection.

-Dodge and Evade are naturally acts of extreme finesse and agility. Because of this it might be a good idea to lower the chance of critical hits with every certain number of points in this. This would be to make glass cannon characters like wizards, conjurers, rogues and rangers more viable at later levels when death is almost staring you in the face.

-The starving count. For some reason, in the past 7 games, i have had at one time 7 people come on my list as starving. Im not sure why this has happened but it is always at least 6 people at once. A couple of times they all died at the same time too so i dont know if they were planning a mass suicide.

-Another thing that has happened is whenever i go to look for the lost item, food, water shipment-it is always in lvl 2. For the past 5 games it has been that way.

Anything else that should be discussed should be in this thread.

Crisses
02-23-2011, 01:33 PM
-Someone recently made mention of having certain armor absorbing a certain amount. Cloth-10-20%, Leather-30-40%, Mail 50-60%, and Plate-70%. I think this would be good and would make sense. I know that a lot of people are saying that too much balance is bad but it doesnt make sense when certain leather armors have more armor than platemail. Especially taking into effect the no strength requirement. I think leather and cloth would be good if you arent going to be putting points into strength. However, if you are going to be wearing plate or mail, you should get some added protection.

I think that they were saying that this is ALREADY the type of protection afforded by said armors. So I'm wondering if the armor rating/numbers matter or if the material matters more....

-Dodge and Evade are naturally acts of extreme finesse and agility. Because of this it might be a good idea to lower the chance of critical hits with every certain number of points in this. This would be to make glass cannon characters like wizards, conjurers, rogues and rangers more viable at later levels when death is almost staring you in the face.

Almost? What game were you playing? :)

-The starving count. For some reason, in the past 7 games, i have had at one time 7 people come on my list as starving. Im not sure why this has happened but it is always at least 6 people at once. A couple of times they all died at the same time too so i dont know if they were planning a mass suicide.

Here's how I think it works:

There's a timer when the game starts before it will declare starvation. So anyone who starts a new "world" in debt will all hit the timer at the same time and be declared starving in one fell swoop. You can prevent it by paying off people's debts early in the game, but then you don't get the rep-building quests :) Hrm... :)

And I'm sure there's a timer after starvation is declaired that is ticking until they die. So all NPCs who start off in debt are declaired starving & dying at the same time. Static timer, not randomized. It might be a good thing for there to be a small randomization (1-3 minutes in seconds?) before the quest is declared, thus randomizing the actual dying time too....?

DeathKnight1728
02-23-2011, 03:22 PM
Almost? What game were you playing?

The game is really not as hard as it used to be. Believe me, the original beta was insane. Monsters at lvl 8 with 200-300 health, respawn rate of monsters out of control, each one hit for 20-35 damage at lvl 6. Even 6 months ago it wasnt that hard compared to before. It still is a bit on the challenging side compared to other games.

Brysos
02-23-2011, 06:27 PM
Really the thing that I would like worked on most is more interesting dungeon generation. To me the dungeons look and feel very random; halls and rooms that each have a random group of mobs, torches, chests, traps etc. Sure each level is limited to certain types of mobs, but there doesn't seem to be much cohesion beyond that. Even the towns feel very random, and not in a good way.

I really think more care should be put into placement of objects and mobs and really dungeon generation in general. Borrow a page from the good roguelikes out there and have predefined 'vault' rooms that pop up here and there to give things a more purposeful look. As far as I can tell the special vaults in Din's are only special due to the type of object that is found in there, aside from the fun of finding 4 treasure chests there is nothing else really distinguishing the treasure room from any other room it seems. A different wall/floor texture, rows of lined up treasure chests, a counting table off to the side with gold pieces on it. Just little things, but they would really add a lot to the game.

DeathKnight1728
02-23-2011, 08:08 PM
The one thing ive never understood is where the blood is in the game. I know that the game is not very violent, but with quests like-"Go over here and kill him" or "Wipe out the rest of these things", it makes me think that maybe a little bit of blood or gore would be a good thing to introduce. Im not saying diablo gore, but when i see the same monster die the same way all the time, wouldnt it be cool if the orc fell on his sword for a change or something along the lines of different death animations.

alstein
02-23-2011, 08:16 PM
The game is really not as hard as it used to be. Believe me, the original beta was insane. Monsters at lvl 8 with 200-300 health, respawn rate of monsters out of control, each one hit for 20-35 damage at lvl 6. Even 6 months ago it wasnt that hard compared to before. It still is a bit on the challenging side compared to other games.

My problem with it isn't so much the difficulty (though I believe twinking is a large part of the fun of games like this), but the fact that the current system tends to cut down on the variety of strongly viable ways to skill up your character.

Bluddy
02-24-2011, 01:11 AM
-Someone recently made mention of having certain armor absorbing a certain amount. Cloth-10-20%, Leather-30-40%, Mail 50-60%, and Plate-70%. I think this would be good and would make sense. I know that a lot of people are saying that too much balance is bad but it doesnt make sense when certain leather armors have more armor than platemail. Especially taking into effect the no strength requirement. I think leather and cloth would be good if you arent going to be putting points into strength. However, if you are going to be wearing plate or mail, you should get some added protection.[QUOTE]

After getting some data samples, it looks like the current formula is pretty close to this, but maybe could use a bit of tweaking (unlike the resistance formula, which I found to be way off). I'm trying to tweak it so that plate counts for more. The problem is that armor values vary tremendously in the higher levels, making it very hard to come up with a good function for that part. Also, I don't have enough samples of plate armor in different levels.

[QUOTE]-Dodge and Evade are naturally acts of extreme finesse and agility. Because of this it might be a good idea to lower the chance of critical hits with every certain number of points in this. This would be to make glass cannon characters like wizards, conjurers, rogues and rangers more viable at later levels when death is almost staring you in the face.

I agree. Critical hits just going up constantly (as I believe they do now) mean that monsters late in the game will demolish weak chars.

-Another thing that has happened is whenever i go to look for the lost item, food, water shipment-it is always in lvl 2. For the past 5 games it has been that way.

Interesting. Could just be chance -- I've had it in many different levels. Maybe the quest generator isn't randomizing this properly from game to game?

Baki
02-24-2011, 01:44 AM
-further adjustments to the armor and especially resistance formulas.
-fixes for animation times
-cooldown reduction or duration increases for most buff skills like concentration, adrenaline, frost armor per skillpoint
-stronger pets
-Better set bonusses and or better set items
-more hp and/or resistances and/or armor for most nonboss monsters.
-make it harder to achieve 100% crit / crush / deep wounds
-spirit _slightly_ increases the chance for a stunning blow
-increase of armor piercing numbers by a few hundred percent
-possibility to enchant items

Bluddy
02-24-2011, 02:28 AM
-fixes for animation times

Just to give more background, I'll quote you from the other thread, Baki:

you are wielding a weapon with 1 second attack speed and 100 damage per swing, no other dmg modifiers from str or skills. -> 100 dps
if you use cleave you will do 150 dmg because cleave has a time value of 1.5 seconds.
but the dmg is alrdy done after ~0.5 seconds. after the dmg is done you quickly do a berserk and the cleave animation will be aborted but the dmg is already done. immediatly cast cleave again -> repeat (you can use programs like autohotkey which help with the timing to optimize it)

that way you can do 150% dps in 0.5 seconds to 2 targets with the best melee range possible. that means cleave with 0% damage bonus is as good vs a single target as a normal attack with 300% dps bonus.

-make it harder to achieve 100% crit / crush / deep wounds

Yeah we probably need a non-linear formula for these .

-possibility to enchant items

This is the only point I disagree with. We already have a huge amount of magic items as it is. Also, if we add the possibility to enchant, we open a massive door for imbalances to creep in.

Baki
02-24-2011, 03:08 AM
Just found another possible exploit. Create the highest level town possible. Check Apo for Stamp out the Infestation, do the quest, abandon town, repeat.

Just leveled from 54 to 60 in 10 minutes. Did not even get xp dept for abandoning.

Bluddy
02-24-2011, 03:12 AM
Just found another possible exploit. Create the highest level town possible. Check Apo for Stamp out the Infestation, do the quest, abandon town, repeat.

Just leveled from 54 to 60 in 10 minutes. Did not even get xp dept for abandoning.

Wow you're an exploit king! How on earth did you think of that?
Hmm... how do we solve this? I guess one way is to say it requires an exception: this particular quest should not have any XP multipliers applied to it.

alstein
02-24-2011, 07:40 AM
Only real solution is to add xp penalty back, or to get rid of that quest (it's annoying and unfun anyways)

Maybe only have it when your rep level is below 5?

Mckertis
02-24-2011, 12:45 PM
Things you'd like worked on in Demon War
I'd like for all the new features to be toned down. Seriously, i registered just to say that the game becomes increasingly more ridiculous.

All the townspeople quests are way, WAY out of hand. Its like they dont even know what food is ! Someone is always starving somewhere, often in sets of 3-5. And its quite a routine, click to get quest - window closes - click to donate - window closes - click to solve quest - window closes. Not fun. Not fun. And how in the world do i give them food instead of money anyway ?

Other quests are the same, just a waste of time running around town squashing invisible bugs, searching for barely visible evidence papers...and they are all MANDATORY, none are optional. And they just HAPPEN to all start starving away at the exact moment when i'm looking at some trader's inventory. What rotten timing.

Oh, also, can something be done about mandatory quest bosses spawning in secret rooms ? At times finding them is a practical impossibility. Just a simple check on the distance to the closest secret wall, is that so much to ask ?

Oh, and the loot generator is still as bad as ever. Previously, by level 20-something my character has amassed about half a dozen each of Greta's Tunic and that Ciglio-something belts. In this new version - i got three Ciglio's by the time i completed one world. Ridiculous i tell you.

Bluddy
02-24-2011, 12:54 PM
I'd like for all the new features to be toned down. Seriously, i registered just to say that the game becomes increasingly more ridiculous.

The features are VERY toned down from the beta, in a very good way. It's true that there may be a few too many starving quests, but at least there are far fewer traitors.

And its quite a routine, click to get quest - window closes - click to donate - window closes - click to solve quest - window closes. Not fun. Not fun. And how in the world do i give them food instead of money anyway ?

I think you can just click food on them. Also, you don't have to accept their quest first -- if you see an NPC with a quest in debt, just give him money. You can then just click to receive the reward. I agree the default way is annoying though. Maybe it can be like in Dungeon Keeper (I keep referring to that game) where monsters have icons over their heads. A food icon means he's hungry and a money icon that he's in debt. More complicated quests will remain question marks.

Other quests are the same, just a waste of time running around town squashing invisible bugs, searching for barely visible evidence papers...

I like the evidence papers, but each to his own. You don't have to find them or squish the bugs BTW - there's no reputation penalty.

Oh, also, can something be done about mandatory quest bosses spawning in secret rooms ? At times finding them is a practical impossibility. Just a simple check on the distance to the closest secret wall, is that so much to ask ?

You still don't know on which side of the wall they are on. It could be far from them, but still block them off.

Oh, and the loot generator is still as bad as ever. Previously, by level 20-something my character has amassed about half a dozen of Greta's Tunic and that Ciglio-something belts. In this new version - i got three Ciglio's by the time i completed one world. Ridiculous i tell you.

I've also been saying that for a while. The good loot should be toned down. I think the set thing is on purpose, because people complained that they couldn't get sets. I think that's exactly how it should be -- sets should be matched using the stash. (And yes, I know HC chars don't have stash access. They shouldn't have sets either).

Crisses
02-24-2011, 01:01 PM
(And yes, I know HC chars don't have stash access. They shouldn't have sets either).

I think HC characters are entirely entitled to sets -- but they have to get them on their own! Nothing wrong with a "clean slate character" -- I play certain characters where I refuse to grab stuff from the shared stash all the time. I make it part of that character's "personality" in my head when I'm playing them. Some I play where they do "Found food only" -- that one is tough -- no purchasing food at all. Rules that aren't enforced by the game, but by myself to add to the "I wonder if I could..." character concept challenge. :)

Brysos
02-24-2011, 07:09 PM
All the townspeople quests are way, WAY out of hand. Its like they dont even know what food is ! Someone is always starving somewhere, often in sets of 3-5. And its quite a routine, click to get quest - window closes - click to donate - window closes - click to solve quest - window closes. Not fun. Not


I have to agree here. I would much rather my interactions with townspeople be about building up defenses etc then running around and clicking a few times to feed them.

I feel like the quest system is a bit too busy with sort of trivial and boring quests. I would love to see it balance with other emergent sort of goals that aren't quest related but that impact the world. Building defensive structures, hiring monsters ala DOP. Investing in the towns in a tangible way. I do really like the fact that you can give the townspeople equipment but it is kind of clunky to run around and hand out gear the way it is set up. And the towns are over and done soon enough.

I would almost like to stay in the towns much longer if it meant building up the npcs, getting them equipped, helping to develop their skills and fighting off invasions with them, until they are strong heroes and you can move on to the next town.

Bluddy
02-24-2011, 07:23 PM
I do really like the fact that you can give the townspeople equipment but it is kind of clunky to run around and hand out gear the way it is set up. And the towns are over and done soon enough.

It's much faster to hand equipment to the warmaster, who will then hand it out to the NPCs. Simply look at the warmaster's equipment and you'll see the armory slot.

I would almost like to stay in the towns much longer if it meant building up the npcs, getting them equipped, helping to develop their skills and fighting off invasions with them, until they are strong heroes and you can move on to the next town.

That'll have to wait for the next expansion. :)

At the same time, part of DC is going to another random town. When towns drag on it can get tedious. Right now the NPC interaction is at a balance point where it's icing to the dungeon fighting without overwhelming the dungeon fighting. Starvation quests may need to be tweaked, but NPCs interact with you in many other ways (including fighting each other). I think Demon War struck a good balance there.

DeathKnight1728
02-25-2011, 12:57 AM
Ive been thinking about the paladin class. Since the paladin just got the ability to wield swords, would it possible to change the mastery to give the paladin the ability to have a mastery with maces and swords for less damage. I cant remember that many paladins that used maces. Maybe im wrong maybe im not, but ive tried to use maces altogether and they are way too slow of a dps. If you add the mastery to both maces and swords but lower the damage to oh say 5% or 6%, it might work. Would this be possible shadow?

Aet
02-25-2011, 03:20 AM
Ive been thinking about the paladin class. Since the paladin just got the ability to wield swords, would it possible to change the mastery to give the paladin the ability to have a mastery with maces and swords for less damage. I cant remember that many paladins that used maces. Maybe im wrong maybe im not, but ive tried to use maces altogether and they are way too slow of a dps. If you add the mastery to both maces and swords but lower the damage to oh say 5% or 6%, it might work. Would this be possible shadow?

Mayhap not paladins, but clerics on the other hand...

Removing the start-up delay of Din showing no more than a blank screen for several seconds before -anything- else would be marvelous. It's been like that for me ever since Demon's War (back in beta) was installed.

Now if only I can figure out where to submit this Din's crash log to...

Baki
02-25-2011, 08:53 AM
create a lvl 100 town with a char. create a new char. Now you can create a lvl 100 town with the new char (bug). do so and do the stamp out the infestation quest.

This is the result:

JaimeLevel 100 WarriorStats

Health: 480 / 480
Mana: 53 / 53

Attack: 25
Defense: 17
Armor: 0

Damage: 1 - 4
Dps: 1.7

Reputation Level: 82

Money: 8SP 38CP

Attributes

Strength: 5
Dexterity: 5
Vitality: 16
Intelligence: 16
Spirit: 5

Points Left: 495

Resistances

Fire Resistance: 1
Cold Resistance: 1
Poison Resistance: 1
Lightning Resistance: 1
Magic Resistance: 0

Skills


Points Left: 1169

Equipment


Fun stats

Kills: 0
Deaths: 0
Kills Per Death: 0

Gold Found: 0CP
Time Played: 10m 33s
Max Damage Dealt: 0
Max Damage Taken: 0
Max Damage Dealt At Once: 0
Max Health Healed: 0

Best Trap Disarmed: lvl 0

Strongest Monster Defeated: None
Toughest Battle Won: None
Strongest Monster Killed By: None
Weakest Monster Killed By: None

Quests Solved: 1

Equipment Worth: 0CP
Inventory Worth: 59SP 43CP

Secrets Found: 0

Towns Saved: 0
Towns Abandoned: 0
Towns Lost: 0

Well, at least we can create as many lvl 100 chars as we want for testing :)

maybe it would be a good idea to limit town creation to +-10 charlvl

Crisses
02-25-2011, 09:35 AM
maybe it would be a good idea to limit town creation to +-10 charlvl

I think it should be possible to create towns with -100 charlevel --- for example if I wanted to host a game with a high level character for someone else's lower level character. But the +10 limit is fair enough.

The Coffee God
02-25-2011, 03:54 PM
This is more of a small addition that anything else, and not really required.

But with the new patch (I went for .010 DC to .022 DW), movement speed items (boots is all I've found so far) have become far more prevalent.

There isn't a stat on the character screen showing effective movement speed (base + any additional modifiers) that I could find.
So I was wondering if this could be added in to one of the new patches, since it got me really curious now with the movement bonus prevalence.

DeathKnight1728
02-26-2011, 04:51 PM
There's one thing I will say about summons. Necromancers obviously have a much easier walk in the park with regards to making any possible "good" summoner. This is because of raise dead. Skeletons and skeleton archers on the other hand are almost useless. What is good however, is Ive read one person that managed to get a healer/necromancer type summoning build to work. They only used skeletons and champion and could take out anything. Other than that, (like the wizard) I cant find that many other builds that work.

Now what i find that is even worse is the warlock. The screes are hopeless, with each level they get faster which doesnt help when they have almost no damage. The last guy on the list-chaos lord isnt needed as you only get one. If he was to be useful maybe you could get 2. The only 1 choice (like the necromancer's one choice) is furies. They have decent damage, sometimes stun, and you can get a few of them. The only problem is that they die off very easy.

I think that the warlock class needs quite a bit of work. The mastery they get isnt very good. If this could change, i would add a 5% bonus to monster life for demon mastery and maybe up the damage bonus to 6%. This wont make them stronger than the necro, but it might help as they are not very desirable as is.

Bluddy
02-27-2011, 03:20 AM
There's one thing I will say about summons. Necromancers obviously have a much easier walk in the park with regards to making any possible "good" summoner. This is because of raise dead. Skeletons and skeleton archers on the other hand are almost useless. What is good however, is Ive read one person that managed to get a healer/necromancer type summoning build to work. They only used skeletons and champion and could take out anything. Other than that, (like the wizard) I cant find that many other builds that work.

Now what i find that is even worse is the warlock. The screes are hopeless, with each level they get faster which doesnt help when they have almost no damage. The last guy on the list-chaos lord isnt needed as you only get one. If he was to be useful maybe you could get 2. The only 1 choice (like the necromancer's one choice) is furies. They have decent damage, sometimes stun, and you can get a few of them. The only problem is that they die off very easy.

I think that the warlock class needs quite a bit of work. The mastery they get isnt very good. If this could change, i would add a 5% bonus to monster life for demon mastery and maybe up the damage bonus to 6%. This wont make them stronger than the necro, but it might help as they are not very desirable as is.

The reason raise dead is so powerful is that you raise a monster of the exact level of one you kill, as opposed to all the other create pet spells, where you create monsters whose level corresponds to a fraction of your level + a bonus based on however many spell levels you have. I'd say this is a pretty serious imbalance. A necromancer needs only to invest once in raise dead. He'll then have a monster that keeps up with the dungeon level. All other pet spells require constant investment or as they go up in level, their monsters will be less and less effective. Thus, the other spells fall into the category of 'spells you need to put all your points into if you want to keep up'.

Let's take a peek at the fury spell. To keep a fury at the level of your character, you would have to invest in the fury spell every 4 levels. You get around a total of 1124 skill points in the game, of which about 674 need to be used to take the fury all the way to level 30. Half of your skill point would have to be used just on the fury. If we account for the fact that you get 1/4 of a fury every skill level, you would need to upgrade the fury skill every 5 levels to keep up. This would cost you about 1/3 of your skill points. The screes are a worse deal in terms of how often you need to upgrade, and chaos lords are the worst deal since it's also much more expensive point-wise.

The necromancer's raise dead spell is more along the lines of what the stronger classes have. Other classes generally don't need to keep investing in specific skills unless they want to, to boost their damage output.

I would change it so that, rather than getting monster levels per spell level, you get a percentage of the player's level count. Thus, monster would start out at 50% of a player's level and would gradually get more and more percentage points per level. If you keep investing, they'd surpass the player's level. Also, to balance out the necromancer, raised monsters should get a % level drop when you raise them. Keep investing in the skill and that level drop would disappear.

DeathKnight1728
02-27-2011, 01:42 PM
The reason raise dead is so powerful is that you raise a monster of the exact level of one you kill, as opposed to all the other create pet spells, where you create monsters whose level corresponds to a fraction of your level + a bonus based on however many spell levels you have. I'd say this is a pretty serious imbalance. A necromancer needs only to invest once in raise dead. He'll then have a monster that keeps up with the dungeon level. All other pet spells require constant investment or as they go up in level, their monsters will be less and less effective. Thus, the other spells fall into the category of 'spells you need to put all your points into if you want to keep up'.

Let's take a peek at the fury spell. To keep a fury at the level of your character, you would have to invest in the fury spell every 4 levels. You get around a total of 1124 skill points in the game, of which about 674 need to be used to take the fury all the way to level 30. Half of your skill point would have to be used just on the fury. If we account for the fact that you get 1/4 of a fury every skill level, you would need to upgrade the fury skill every 5 levels to keep up. This would cost you about 1/3 of your skill points. The screes are a worse deal in terms of how often you need to upgrade, and chaos lords are the worst deal since it's also much more expensive point-wise.

The necromancer's raise dead spell is more along the lines of what the stronger classes have. Other classes generally don't need to keep investing in specific skills unless they want to, to boost their damage output.

I would change it so that, rather than getting monster levels per spell level, you get a percentage of the player's level count. Thus, monster would start out at 50% of a player's level and would gradually get more and more percentage points per level. If you keep investing, they'd surpass the player's level. Also, to balance out the necromancer, raised monsters should get a % level drop when you raise them. Keep investing in the skill and that level drop would disappear.

Very good idea bluddy. But I just thought of something else. What if instead of a percentage per level, the pet starts off at whatever level you are. Every 2 levels the pet goes up by 1 level. So if you are lvl 20 and have a lvl 10 scree, the scree will be lvl 25. Thats actually not too bad if you are an average gamer. At level 20 the scree will always be 10 levels higher than you. This is good. Most people would like to do worlds 4-6 higher than their own. The demon is 4 lvls higher than any worlds 6 levels higher than their character. Then add demon mastery (which will hopefully be improved), and you have a decent summoner.

Bluddy
02-27-2011, 02:42 PM
Very good idea bluddy. But I just thought of something else. What if instead of a percentage per level, the pet starts off at whatever level you are. Every 2 levels the pet goes up by 1 level. So if you are lvl 20 and have a lvl 10 scree, the scree will be lvl 25. Thats actually not too bad if you are an average gamer. At level 20 the scree will always be 10 levels higher than you. This is good. Most people would like to do worlds 4-6 higher than their own. The demon is 4 lvls higher than any worlds 6 levels higher than their character. Then add demon mastery (which will hopefully be improved), and you have a decent summoner.

I think 10 levels higher than your character is overkill :) Remember that as you're gaining levels, the screes also multiply. Higher level monsters also tend to decimate lower level ones.

The problem in this case is the mixing of percentages and levels. My idea wasn't that great either. If you keep adding percentages, eventually you'll end up with, say 20% or whatever higher than your level. At 80 your scree will be level 96! So that's not a good idea. I think the monsters should just start lower than your level by a couple of levels, and then VERY slowly bridge the gap as they also multiply. It shouldn't be that if I don't keep investing points in my fury, he'll be a level 42 when I'm level 60. That just doesn't make sense. It's not even like a low level attack -- he'll just get wiped out right away.

EDIT: I just noticed the fact that pets get boosts to their attack/defense and such. I'm going to have to reconsider my words here. Maybe a small improvement is all that's needed.

The Coffee God
02-27-2011, 06:31 PM
As much as I love the randomness that allows drops like this...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/thecoffeegod/home/games/dcdggr_s.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/thecoffeegod/home/games/dcdggrspd_s.jpg

The animation just can't keep up with speeds like that.

Another thing I noticed recently, now that I found a weapon speed bow.
Bows also have an animation issue with speeds in the 0.5 and below range.


Maybe we can put a cap on the weapon speeds.

DeathKnight1728
02-27-2011, 06:42 PM
I think 10 levels higher than your character is overkill :) Remember that as you're gaining levels, the screes also multiply. Higher level monsters also tend to decimate lower level ones.

The problem in this case is the mixing of percentages and levels. My idea wasn't that great either. If you keep adding percentages, eventually you'll end up with, say 20% or whatever higher than your level. At 80 your scree will be level 96! So that's not a good idea. I think the monsters should just start lower than your level by a couple of levels, and then VERY slowly bridge the gap as they also multiply. It shouldn't be that if I don't keep investing points in my fury, he'll be a level 42 when I'm level 60. That just doesn't make sense. It's not even like a low level attack -- he'll just get wiped out right away.

EDIT: I just noticed the fact that pets get boosts to their attack/defense and such. I'm going to have to reconsider my words here. Maybe a small improvement is all that's needed.

That is true. Maybe if it goes up every 4 levels. At lvl 30 (which rarely happens-it would be 7+ levels.) At the max which rarely would happen, the monster would be a little buffed. I find that Since most people wouldnt get it to that point it wouldnt be a problem. 25 Would be more reasonable of a level for the average gamer. That would be 6. In order to make this work, I was thinking if the max creatures you can summon be set to 5. Im not sure how much that would hurt certain creatures. The chaos lord would need to get a bit more powerful if that change was ever to happen. I dont see the need to have more than 5 creatures at one time, especially if some are champions. Idk, would tampering with max creatures actually be a good thing if the creatures were brought up?

Srulz
02-27-2011, 11:29 PM
As much as I love the randomness that allows drops like this...

snip

The animation just can't keep up with speeds like that.

Another thing I noticed recently, now that I found a weapon speed bow.
Bows also have an animation issue with speeds in the 0.5 and below range.


Maybe we can put a cap on the weapon speeds.

NO !

Please don't nerf my Thief / Druid :( I mean, there's nothing -really- wrong with attacking too fast that the character appears to not be even moving..it is logical! The movement is too fast to catch with one's eyes..

Besides, it's the only way the single-attack hybrids would be able to catch up to other multi-attacking melees..

DeathKnight1728
02-28-2011, 12:15 AM
NO !

Please don't nerf my Thief / Druid :( I mean, there's nothing -really- wrong with attacking too fast that the character appears to not be even moving..it is logical! The movement is too fast to catch with one's eyes..

Besides, it's the only way the single-attack hybrids would be able to catch up to other multi-attacking melees..

I have to agree that nerfing that wouldnt be cool. I eventually want to make an assassin/druid with the same mindset. I wouldnt really worry about it though as there are much more important things to focus on. If you make it past .05 seconds however, i dont know how much faster you can want it :)

The Coffee God
02-28-2011, 12:31 AM
If you make it past .05 seconds however, i dont know how much faster you can want it :)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/thecoffeegod/smilies/lol.gif
See, that's the problem though.
That .13 speed was only modified by elite Degol's Gloves & Fryse's White Ring, with artifact or legendary it would be even lower.
Also, had I actually put any points in my Speed theif skill, it would be even lower, albeit for a short time, but still, that's just insanely fast.

Not to mention, with randomness of enchantments, there's even a chance of getting a dagger with a speed of .05 alone, unmodified by anything else.

DeathKnight1728
03-03-2011, 09:04 PM
Ive been using the wards a lot with the warden class and i find that they work very well if you just use standard attacks, especially with the lightning and fire ones. The lightning ward at low levels is weak because a 3% critical and magic critical isnt much, however at higher levels (say 10 and greater) thats a 30% bonus to critical. Thats quite a bit and magic critical bonus is good for a mage hybrid.

However, the one ward i find could be better as i find it less useful is the poison ward. The 1 damage per second does almost nothing for monsters lvl 10 and up. The attack speed slow helps but i would suggest something different. Instead of adding more damage why not add a small attack speed boost per level. Poison damage doesnt seem it will mix well with monsters at higher levels and with the resistances on most of them-they will laugh. If you add 1% or 2% attack speed bonus per ward level and keep the slow per ward level, thats not a bad deal if you put alot of points into it. Plus, wards in my eyes, arent supposed to damage, they are supposed to hinder. And luring monsters back for 10 damage isnt worth it.

Orrus
03-04-2011, 04:52 PM
I'd like to see hunger quests worked on a bit. They seem to happen too often, even after I solve food shortage quests.

Edit: Oh, also a bigger quest log!

Crisses
03-04-2011, 05:18 PM
Edit: Oh, also a bigger quest log!

Yes, that might be helpful as I've seen times that I can't even grab all of the "Quests you have to grab to fill them" for a single level in the dungeon! Those are times the dungeon gets waaaaay out of hand for a while. I've had 5+ machines, several "Something Uprising", a couple optional "Build a X totem/shrine" quests etc.

If you lose a quest giver it gets worse. You can be stuck with several quests in your log that you can't cash in...

spacehog
03-04-2011, 07:36 PM
If you lose a quest giver it gets worse. You can be stuck with several quests in your log that you can't cash in...

If you've completed a quest for a dead quest giver you can abandon it and still be able to turn it in when you recruit a replacement. Makes it a little easier to pick up some new quests in the meantime.

benloran
03-04-2011, 10:01 PM
In fact, I've come to realize that you don't need to even accept most quests to still be able to turn them in later. Any quest that asks you to kill X mobs, kill a boss, put down a town raid, find who sabotaged the town, get someone out of debt or keep them from starving, or destroy a machine don't need you to accept the quest first. I think also I've been able to do the mining, find a body, and rescue someone quests without accepting them.

The quests where you need to grab items off the floor of the dungeon, or from killing mobs, do seem to need to be accepted first in order to find the items.

I've also discovered that, when playing in multiplayer, everyone gets credit for a quest turn-in, whether they accepted the quest or not, which is really nice.

Crisses
03-04-2011, 10:23 PM
In fact, I've come to realize that you don't need to even accept most quests to still be able to turn them in later. Any quest that asks you to kill X mobs, kill a boss, put down a town raid, find who sabotaged the town, get someone out of debt or keep them from starving, or destroy a machine don't need you to accept the quest first. I think also I've been able to do the mining, find a body, and rescue someone quests without accepting them.

The quests where you need to grab items off the floor of the dungeon, or from killing mobs, do seem to need to be accepted first in order to find the items.

I've also discovered that, when playing in multiplayer, everyone gets credit for a quest turn-in, whether they accepted the quest or not, which is really nice.

Yes, I'm aware of those, but I wasn't sure that you'd keep completed on the ones that you had to pick up to complete. Good to know...

DeathKnight1728
03-05-2011, 06:48 PM
Alright, im trying to find some sort of a use for 3 sets of skills that are on the demon hunter classes. I have used this class up 35 and i have yet to find a use for them.

1) The wards and circles. Im sorry to say but the wards dont work for melee characters (which the demon hunter class is). They force you to lure monsters back to the zone and then pick them with physical attacks. What doesnt make sense is that the only ranged attack the demon hunter has is fire strike which can barely constitute as a ranged attack. If you were a trickster with shuriken, it could work. Or an archer or hunter would work just as good because you dont have to lure them back to that space. The reason this doesnt work is because time is important and if you are luring everyone there, the enemy is getting stronger due to large amounts of time wasted. Ive used the wards and circle of protection/power and they give a good boost, but are almost useless for melee.

I would suggest giving the demonologist class the ability to use bows and a small bonus to attack .5. If not that, then give a small bonus to their defense so they dont get hit all the time. I think the bow addition would be good though as i cant see wards and circles getting any use without some sort of missile weapon. Besides, if demonologists are wielding daggers (a finesseful weapon), then they should have some agility, and thus get a bonus to attack or defense.

2) Blood Sacrifice-I used to think this skill was ok at low levels, but now its very hazardous and the chance of dying is high.

The reason is first it has a 1 second casting time, this would be good at .5 seconds. More importantly second, make the duration 15 seconds with the damage being set at every 2 seconds. This will work better as 10 seconds goes way too fast and casting it over and over will have you back in town many times.

Crisses
03-05-2011, 07:25 PM
My demon hunter is not high enough level to say much on this, but I've been using the circles when I'm surrounded, or there's lots of fast critters. I DO lure them back in if needed, but usually I find there's enough critters coming to me that it's not so bad. Due to the cooldowns, I alternate between 2 of them. If it doesn't scale to level, per the other threads on the topic, it would be something I'd end up probably dropping though.

Magitek
03-05-2011, 07:33 PM
1) The wards and circles. Im sorry to say but the wards dont work for melee characters (which the demon hunter class is). They force you to lure monsters back to the zone and then pick them with physical attacks. What doesnt make sense is that the only ranged attack the demon hunter has is fire strike which can barely constitute as a ranged attack. If you were a trickster with shuriken, it could work. Or an archer or hunter would work just as good because you dont have to lure them back to that space. The reason this doesnt work is because time is important and if you are luring everyone there, the enemy is getting stronger due to large amounts of time wasted. Ive used the wards and circle of protection/power and they give a good boost, but are almost useless for melee.

I think the circles are pretty damn good in any large conflict, or against bosses. You're really supposed to place the circles where the battle will be; in doing so you should get plenty use out of them even if you are melee.. more so if you're running a coop game.

I'm a bit skeptical of the wards, but the circles are borderline overpowered; particularly in coop- not a bad thing because there really aren't a great deal of cooperative friendly skills that are so easy to use.


I would suggest giving the demonologist class the ability to use bows and a small bonus to attack .5. If not that, then give a small bonus to their defense so they dont get hit all the time. I think the bow addition would be good though as i cant see wards and circles getting any use without some sort of missile weapon. Besides, if demonologists are wielding daggers (a finesseful weapon), then they should have some agility, and thus get a bonus to attack or defense.

I think hybrids characters can pretty much cover this, but I also don't think it'd hurt for another class to get access to bows either. Adding crossbows would be nicer though!


2) Blood Sacrifice-I used to think this skill was ok at low levels, but now its very hazardous and the chance of dying is high.

Even in my mod I don't think I could get this skill to a usable level; I'm pretty sure even with a regeneration build it wouldn't come anywhere close to the damage sustained. It could be paired with greater heal but you'd really spend more time healing yourself than dealing damage.
It might just be better as a damage multiplier instead of a damage over time, it's pretty damn difficult to use as it is. This might also be interesting on a dex or defense character build.

DeathKnight1728
03-05-2011, 10:35 PM
I think the circles are pretty damn good in any large conflict, or against bosses. You're really supposed to place the circles where the battle will be; in doing so you should get plenty use out of them even if you are melee.. more so if you're running a coop game.

I'm a bit skeptical of the wards, but the circles are borderline overpowered; particularly in coop- not a bad thing because there really aren't a great deal of cooperative friendly skills that are so easy to use.



You are right that it is good to use when you are fighting foes close. However, at the point i am in, mages will never get close enough for me to be able to lure them (especially dark elf mages). It just doesnt work. And when that happens, my character is missing out on one of its key components. Maybe its just me, but ill try and hold out and see if it gets better.

DeathKnight1728
03-06-2011, 05:26 PM
One thing i never understood was the magicians skill blinding flash. Its a great skill, but it would be better if there was a -10 defense added on to each level. Its good to freeze your opponents, but it would make sense they are easier to hit even if the bonus is minor. Especially since some of those staves that you can get can deal decent damage while a spell is recharging.

EternalChampion
03-07-2011, 02:39 PM
I think the Rylors need tweaking. Too many are appearing in my lvl35+ dungeons. 10-20 Rylors (per room) all tossing bombs and surrounding you while you're being stunned by Bull Rylors make for plenty of instant deaths for a melee character. And the bombs seem WAY more powerful. :mad:

Orrus
03-07-2011, 04:41 PM
I was thinking about town hunger, and how currently it's rather bothersome, and came up with an idea that may make it more enjoyable.

The concept of starving citizens is nice, and saving them is good rep and makes the player feel more heroic. But the mechanic of constantly hunting down each person to give money & food to is tiresome.

I propose that the Apothecary handle all hunger quests. When someone is starving the Apothecary will get the "?" quest marker and give out the quest. The Apothecary would also have a "provisions" slot when inspected, similar to the Warmaster's "armory" slot. Any food or water dropped into the provisions slot would be handed out to the hungriest citizens.

This way you can keep the citizens well fed and happy, without having to run all over the place and click so many times on the starving npcs.

P.S. This made me wonder, when I start a new town should I just run around to every npc and donate them up to 10sp each? Would that stop the hunger quests in that world? Maybe that wouldn't be a good thing since you'd miss out on the town rep.

DeathKnight1728
03-07-2011, 05:20 PM
I think the Rylors need tweaking. Too many are appearing in my lvl35+ dungeons. 10-20 Rylors (per room) all tossing bombs and surrounding you while you're being stunned by Bull Rylors make for plenty of instant deaths for a melee character. And the bombs seem WAY more powerful. :mad:

There's a way to combat that but it comes at a cost. Make all towns with dangerous monsters setting and then there will be 33% less monsters all together. However, they will be a bit stronger than usual. I think its worth the risk. Whatever you do, dont make raging hordes an option, especially past lvl 40 :eek:

Max_Powers
03-07-2011, 06:40 PM
There's a way to combat that but it comes at a cost. Make all towns with dangerous monsters setting and then there will be 33% less monsters all together. However, they will be a bit stronger than usual. I think its worth the risk. Whatever you do, dont make raging hordes an option, especially past lvl 40 :eek:


Good suggestion. I always play with 'Dangerous Monsters' and I believe that ultimately you will get better drops also.

DeathKnight1728
03-07-2011, 08:03 PM
The problem with raging hordes is that you dont get many champions, as there is naturally more monsters. However that still gives more chances of getting a few-which ultimately sucks when your screen is stacked. Any character that doesnt have an aoe attack at lvl 50s and on will have a major problem with this option.

Does anyone play the paladin class often? I went back to one of my old characters that had paladin as a class and noticed that the skill-Zeal's mana goes up per skill level. Why would a melee skill go up in mana? The gladiator has savage strike that is at the same lvl and it stays at 10 mana. This should be fixed as paladins have a rough time as it is.

Max_Powers
03-07-2011, 08:26 PM
Does anyone play the paladin class often? I went back to one of my old characters that had paladin as a class and noticed that the skill-Zeal's mana goes up per skill level. Why would a melee skill go up in mana? The gladiator has savage strike that is at the same lvl and it stays at 10 mana. This should be fixed as paladins have a rough time as it is.

I have my paladin/weaponmaster up to level 75 now(but haven't go on to the last difficulty level just yet), but I have never used that skill. So, I guess me posting this was pretty useless. Oh, except to brag about my character.....which will probably be shelved once I do go on to the final difficulty level. He has been eating/drinking food/potions like crazy. Truthfully, he should be 500lbs. Yep.

DeathKnight1728
03-07-2011, 09:54 PM
I have my paladin/weaponmaster up to level 75 now(but haven't go on to the last difficulty level just yet), but I have never used that skill. So, I guess me posting this was pretty useless. Oh, except to brag about my character.....which will probably be shelved once I do go on to the final difficulty level. He has been eating/drinking food/potions like crazy. Truthfully, he should be 500lbs. Yep.

No it goes up. I think that it should be kept at 10 or 12 mana for fairness. But no higher than 12 as savage strike is at 10.

DeathKnight1728
03-08-2011, 03:08 PM
Caltrops can reach the max level of 10 and goes down in time before you can use it by 1 second per point. It starts at 45 seconds. This might be good but if you depend on that skill every 20 seconds or so it should go to 15 seconds before reuse at lvl 10. To do this, each level would decrease the time of reuse by 3 seconds. 3 seconds times 10 levels equals 30 seconds taken off. This should give you 15 seconds before you can reuse. That might work with that skill. Even if it cant be 15 seconds, if it goes down 2.5 seconds per level that would still give it 20 seconds before reuse, which is manageable. The reason why this needs to be changed is because most of the monsters that you are fighting with this, are dead way before 10-15 seconds. So without it on a regular basis, it wont work. Unless of course the caltrops skill can be taken to a higher level. If that happened and extended the skill to 20-30 lvl, then it would be an even better skill. Maybe make the person easier to crit on or something to make it worth the skill levels.

m0stly_harmless
03-09-2011, 06:44 PM
Here's a suggestion.

I spent the better part of 6 hours today with a sacrificial character exploring town creation and the modifiers.

I have found that 99% of the time, towns have negative modifiers (earthquake, dark elves, acid, rowdy type stuff).

I have found that less than 1% of the time will you get something good like rich, cupid or vendors galore.

Only ONCE did I get a town with NO modifiers. (I think I should report THAT as a bug... :D)

I know there's a "Low Stress" option but that comes with a 15% Xp hit.

I'm curious as to why that ^ is? Why would you want to penalize those of us who just want to dungeon crawl and not worry about NPCs? I'm getting the feeling that Din's is quickly becoming less of a dungeon crawler and more of a NPC babysitting sim with some uglies tossed in there for entertainment.

Honestly, I don't care if the marriage between two NPCs has failed. Mofo prolly had it coming. I saw him flirting with the Apothecary at the pub anyways.

The XP (punishment) hit should be turfed IMO. Return it to a nominal level of earning.

Add an XP bonus for NOT turning that on (ticking the box). Heck, there shouldn't be a bonus. You get extra XP just saving the town every time it gets attacked and saving the needy/greedy NPCs.

Heck, let's take it up a notch.

If you're gonna keep the 15% penalty for having a "Low Stress" environment, at least let us CHOOSE the world modifiers we want to deal with. A tick box for every one of them would be nice. At least then, if I'm being punished for a 15% XP hit, at least I can pick the kind of miserable town I'm going to be saving.

I still feel the XP hit should be turfed and the truely "random" created worlds should carry a little bonus.

That's my two cents for tonight. :cool:

Max_Powers
03-09-2011, 07:05 PM
I play with 'low stress' all the time and I just balance it back out by also playing on 'fast pace'. Since there seems to be no town attacks of any kind(is it supposed to eliminate ALL attacks or just the more stressful stuff?)you don't have to worry so much about gates and can just knock out the quests. In this case 'fast pace' doesn't seem like fast pace.

Maledictus
03-09-2011, 07:22 PM
Something I just thought of: should hardcore mode ignore any mods? Does it already?

Things I'd love to see in the town logs:
- more info on the town start, like char-level / town-level and details on all user selected (character)modifiers (most of em are already in there I believe)
- if this is possible, info on active mods (if only just a filename)
- when set/unique etc. items are found plus (some of) the item's details (already in there?)

The mentioning of 'can put any type of item here' when hovering over an empty space in the inventory... As far as I'm concerned that might as well be removed. It's kind of obvious, and the hovering text obscures stuff in the inventory so I keep flicking my mouse around to 'clear' my view on my items.

DeathKnight1728
03-13-2011, 03:44 AM
I know this has been mentioned before, but once the game reaches level 50 and on, the leveling aspect drags on. You get the same experience for killing a monster at lvl 1. This is actually major as not everyone has aoe power. Maybe experience should go up by each new level. Even a bit would really help. I feel even lvl 30 and on doesnt give almost any experience unless you really risk it and go 10-14 levels higher than yours.

Caal
03-13-2011, 08:45 AM
I know this has been mentioned before, but once the game reaches level 50 and on, the leveling aspect drags on. You get the same experience for killing a monster at lvl 1. This is actually major as not everyone has aoe power. Maybe experience should go up by each new level. Even a bit would really help. I feel even lvl 30 and on doesnt give almost any experience unless you really risk it and go 10-14 levels higher than yours.

I'm not sure there is a way to mod monster xp by level, but the issue could be approached from the other direction. At level 50 you need about 82,200 xp to get to level 51. This number grows by 3% each level (starting at 51) until you need nearly 350,000 xp to go from 99 to 100. By changing the 3% to some lower number, you could reduce the grind.

DeathKnight1728
03-13-2011, 12:02 PM
I'm not sure there is a way to mod monster xp by level, but the issue could be approached from the other direction. At level 50 you need about 82,200 xp to get to level 51. This number grows by 3% each level (starting at 51) until you need nearly 350,000 xp to go from 99 to 100. By changing the 3% to some lower number, you could reduce the grind.

Thats good to know and might work. The only reason i am saying this is that classes that arent fast slayers and rely on defensive strategies (demon hunter) take longer time to defeat monsters. The demon hunter if played differently is one of those characters. If you play defensively by say using the wards or the circle of power/protection, then you can be powerful but you will defeat monsters much slower. Something should be done to help reaching higher levels, thats all i know.

Crisses
03-13-2011, 12:30 PM
Do NOT modify the # of experience required per-level.

Modify the XP granted per-monster. There are level-based factors in the systems.gdb that will modify the XP granted on kills.

I modded the XP/level system to playtest character builds for the conversations on skill/spell balance. What I found is that going back to an un-modded game meant that I have a nice high level, but a HUGE gap in XP to the next level. If you change XP/level and ever wanted to go back to an unmodded game -- say to play multiplayer or even you changed your mind, or wanted to test other options for play -- you would have this enormous "XP Debt" to get up to the next level. No fun.

Caal
03-13-2011, 03:42 PM
Modify the XP granted per-monster. There are level-based factors in the systems.gdb that will modify the XP granted on kills.


I knew you could apply flat multiples to monster xp by type (normal, champion, boss, etc.), but I didn't know it could vary by level. Which lines in systems.gdb do that?

Crisses
03-13-2011, 04:20 PM
I knew you could apply flat multiples to monster xp by type (normal, champion, boss, etc.), but I didn't know it could vary by level. Which lines in systems.gdb do that?

I ***believe*** those are per-level modifiers to a base XP somewhere in the system. I suggest experimenting. You'll still need to kill more monsters per-level, but it will be less than before. It's unreasonable for the difficulty not to go up somewhat. I think I doubled the modifiers, and it's still taking more kills-per-level, so I'm not sure how strongly that factors in. I think around level 20 I'm getting from 300+XP up to 2000XP per kill.

DeathKnight1728
03-13-2011, 08:39 PM
Does anyone use maces at all or are they just not worth it? I got a few maces with stunning blow added and a dps of like 75. Not that bad for 50, but still very slow. I was thinking of using the paladin class, however there is no mastery for swords. Kind of a waste.

Crisses
03-13-2011, 09:18 PM
Does anyone use maces at all or are they just not worth it? I got a few maces with stunning blow added and a dps of like 75. Not that bad for 50, but still very slow. I was thinking of using the paladin class, however there is no mastery for swords. Kind of a waste.

I'd say find some boots/items with -weapon speed but changing weapon speed doesn't seem to help at all when you use skills to attack. I'm not sure if that's a bug or not. :/ If the only limit there is the animation, that might explain it, but my trickster/hunter has a bow and fires 3x as fast without skills vs. barbed arrow.

Manumitted
03-13-2011, 11:38 PM
I'd say find some boots/items with -weapon speed but changing weapon speed doesn't seem to help at all when you use skills to attack. I'm not sure if that's a bug or not. :/ If the only limit there is the animation, that might explain it, but my trickster/hunter has a bow and fires 3x as fast without skills vs. barbed arrow.

Attack skills always take their same time to happen. Weapon/attack speed boosts modify the standard swing time. The skill's swing time is ratioed with the current standard swing time to yield the multiplier for the damage roll. Try a Whirlwind with a fast weapon and the Enchanter's Champion buff active and see the massive difference. The normal-swing difference is harder to see because of normal damage roll variation unless you're a Crushing machine and nearly always get the Crush damage.

Originally Posted by DeathKnight1728
Does anyone use maces at all or are they just not worth it? I got a few maces with stunning blow added and a dps of like 75. Not that bad for 50, but still very slow. I was thinking of using the paladin class, however there is no mastery for swords. Kind of a waste.

I wouldn't use a mace for melee unless I had massive Mace Mastery/Crushing Blow skill as well as Whirlwind, Cleave, other multi-target attack, or a sped-up flail. The 1.2 s swing for non-flail 1h maces is bad enough,* but the 1.85 s standard swing for 2h maces is just painful.

*They only get 7/8 the swings of a standard 1h ax, 3/4 the swings of a standard 1h sword, or 2/3 the swings of a fast 1h sword.

DeathKnight1728
03-14-2011, 12:28 AM
Attack skills always take their same time to happen. Weapon/attack speed boosts modify the standard swing time. The skill's swing time is ratioed with the current standard swing time to yield the multiplier for the damage roll. Try a Whirlwind with a fast weapon and the Enchanter's Champion buff active and see the massive difference. The normal-swing difference is harder to see because of normal damage roll variation unless you're a Crushing machine and nearly always get the Crush damage.


I wouldn't use a mace for melee unless I had massive Mace Mastery/Crushing Blow skill as well as Whirlwind, Cleave, other multi-target attack, or a sped-up flail. The 1.2 s swing for non-flail 1h maces is bad enough,* but the 1.85 s standard swing for 2h maces is just painful.

*They only get 7/8 the swings of a standard 1h ax, 3/4 the swings of a standard 1h sword, or 2/3 the swings of a fast 1h sword.


Yeah, maces definitely need some work. I was actually wondering if anyone thinks paladins should instead get mace/sword mastery. If they use swords then they wont be able to hit for anything due to lack of mastery. Plus, paladins use swords and sometimes maces, not the other way around. I dont think they should nerf the class, but just make it so it affects swords and maces. That would be awesome and make the paladin much more useful and priests altogether more useful.

For maces, if they ever wanted to make maces directly powerful, they should make criticals more powerful on all mace attacks. Why, well in history one warhammer smashing at full force is enough to shatter all bones and even more so when wearing full platemail. A sword will have a tough time slashing unless you are good or you go for a stab. Either way, you have to do a powerful slash or cleave. A mace on the other hand would be much better at critically hitting since it is blunt. They did this in mount and blade to be historical, piercing did alot of damage, but blunt did the most for historically accurate reasons.

DeathKnight1728
03-15-2011, 05:40 PM
I am thinking of making an armor piercing bow character. I think that the reaver might work since with it i get pierce, deep wounds and mail and plate armor. If i was to choose the assassin i would get more piercing and crit but less protection. Im going to see if patch 1.23 will make breech any better. Has anyone ever made an armor piercing type character or do they still suck?

bushwhacker2k
03-16-2011, 12:06 AM
They did this in mount and blade to be historical, piercing did alot of damage, but blunt did the most for historically accurate reasons.

I think I'm confused, this is fairly irrelevant for Din's Curse, but in M&B blunt weapons were the LEAST effective, being mainly used for knocking people unconscious and selling them into slavery (we were such good people in M&B).

That said, maces do seem too slow to be that effective compared to swords; i.e. I agree. Maybe if I was all about skills, but swords' weapon speeds seem to be around .8-.9 whereas my maces are around 1.5 and often do less damage, so it just doesn't work out...

Manumitted
03-16-2011, 01:37 AM
That said, maces do seem too slow to be that effective compared to swords; i.e. I agree. Maybe if I was all about skills, but swords' weapon speeds seem to be around .8-.9 whereas my maces are around 1.5 and often do less damage, so it just doesn't work out...

As with many things in this game, a sharp inflection point exists for maces, at least 1h maces.

I got a bit past L50 with one character and suddenly started drowning in good-to-great War Clubs (along with most other weapon types). That type had been stinking for 10-15 levels just like all the other 1h maces. Now it's almost the best for my arsenal's 1h Crush DPS.*

*Hilariously, it comes up just short of that well-known bludgeon, the stiletto. I found/bought one nasty shiv of that type recently. I'm tempted to give it to my Warrior and watch his DPS double. Phear my tiny widdle knife!

Bluddy
03-16-2011, 04:31 AM
As with many things in this game, a sharp inflection point exists for maces, at least 1h maces.

I got a bit past L50 with one character and suddenly started drowning in good-to-great War Clubs (along with most other weapon types). That type had been stinking for 10-15 levels just like all the other 1h maces. Now it's almost the best for my arsenal's 1h Crush DPS.*

*Hilariously, it comes up just short of that well-known bludgeon, the stiletto. I found/bought one nasty shiv of that type recently. I'm tempted to give it to my Warrior and watch his DPS double. Phear my tiny widdle knife!

Yeah I have to say that, looking over the item data, I don't really get the considerations that went into them. Basically, all weapons are equal damage-wise as far as the game is concerned, except for bows, which are weaker, and 2 handed weapons, which are all equally stronger than regular weapons. Speed-wise, however, weapons differ from each other, with daggers being fastest. This means that the highest DPS single-handed weapon will always be a dagger!

I think I'll make an attempt at bringing the values closer to what we'd expect them to be in my balance mod. It's too bad we don't have piercing vs crushing damage in the game, as that would really allow each weapon to shine. Barring that, I'd say the order of strength from weakest to strongest should be staves, bows, daggers, maces, swords, axes, 2 handed maces, 2 handed swords, 2 handed axes. The speeds go roughly in the opposite order.

Shadow
03-16-2011, 12:24 PM
Speed-wise, however, weapons differ from each other, with daggers being fastest. This means that the highest DPS single-handed weapon will always be a dagger!

I think I'll make an attempt at bringing the values closer to what we'd expect them to be in my balance mod.

You aren't going to want to do that. Internally the game takes into account the speed differences to keep the weapon types at the same DPS.

Bluddy
03-16-2011, 12:29 PM
You aren't going to want to do that. Internally the game takes into account the speed differences to keep the weapon types at the same DPS.

Oh ok -- good to know. So that's why they mostly have the same damage in the text files?

Shadow
03-16-2011, 02:37 PM
Oh ok -- good to know. So that's why they mostly have the same damage in the text files?

Yes, pretty much all the weapon types have the same dps except bows are slightly lower because of the range advantage and two handed weapons are a good bit higher because of the loss of the off hand slot.

Maledictus
03-16-2011, 08:23 PM
I don't think there's a central feature request thread so I'll just be so bold as to post here.

- what Torchlight did with the spacebar would be a great thing to have in DC. For those that missed that: the spacebar in TL closed all open (char/inventory/skills etc.) screens and put the player back into the game at once. It's nothing groundbreaking but, for instance, when working with the stash/inventory screens it can take a few clicks/key presses to close everything and get back to running around. Having one key that would do that would be awesome, I think. I know, lazy and relatively minor, considering the weight of things discussed here, but still.
- I suppose behind the scenes DC keeps a record or tally or whatever that indicates to the game how close the player is to saving the town. I'd love to have that visualized somewhere. Maybe in the character screen; a bar that goes from '-' to '+' (from left to right), or a color that indicates progress (from red to green). Things like losing people and quests (setbacks, which I assume have a negative effect on saving town progression) would become more evident, as the bar (or color thingy) would indicate this (much like the reputation bar does now); turning towards the negative if you're losing grip on the salvation progress. Perhaps I can mod this in myself?
- I have the impression that the ward skills for the warden are somewhat overpowered; they're cheap (in mana) and can be stacked (can cast all 4 if you want). Maybe make them more expensive mana-wise, and/or disable the stacking.

DeathKnight1728
03-18-2011, 12:30 PM
Maledictus, i think that wards should not be stacked as well. With fire ward mixed with poison (lower attack speed) mixed with cold (even more slow) you can kill anything. However, circles have the same problem.


I really like where dins is going with the new patch. I think that the next good thing would be the achievements.

Ive been doing some thinking with balance in mind and came upon this idea.

-Strength: 10% to mininum and maximum damage per 50 strength. This would be available per 50 strength attained through base stats. At 250 strength you get ultimate strength which would give you 20% to min and maximum.

-Dexterity: I thought on how important dexterity is for hitting and even more important on not getting hit at all. 5% bonus on current defense and attack per 50 dexterity. 10% bonus when reaching ultimate finesse at 250

-Vitality: Same as before, 5% bonus to physical resistance per 50 vitality and 10% bonus when reaching ultimate hardiness at 250 vitality.

-Intelligence:50 Skillpoints per 50 intelligence. At 250 intelligence you will get 150 skillpoints for peerless intellect.

-Spirit: These numbers will be a bit high so bare with me-10% resistance bonus on all resistances. 20% bonus at ultimate will be at reaching 250 spirit.

Any ideas or thoughts on this would be great and very helpful.

bushwhacker2k
03-18-2011, 07:01 PM
... So pretty much make wards unstackable and then use the stat milestone boosts like DoP had?

Maledictus
03-19-2011, 06:00 PM
I would think that the DoP stat boosts can't simply be implemented as they were in DoP. That would unbalance things. I think that character progression is designed to work differently for both games, so just copying a certain progression scheme will mess things up. If the stat upgrades would be minor enough to not mess up balance they might as well not be implemented, so to me this isn't a viable idea.
If bonuses are needed make the achievements pay off; connect rewards to the achievements, and add a few for good measure. It should be easy enough think up something that would allow a character access to an achievement award. Awards can be anything; stat points, skill points, or items. That would also address one of my major gripes with achievements: they're good for absolutely nothing except bragging rights, so as is I'm not even looking at what I've 'achieved' sofar.
Also, when an achievement is earned, show a short pop-up or message in-game. This should be configurable (enable/disable), personally I think it kills immersion to see that pop-up, but if it's done well (meaning, not the way Steam handles it) that might not be an issue.

bushwhacker2k
03-20-2011, 12:44 AM
It'd be rather difficult to implement (I'd imagine) but a system that changes your energy source (like in DoP) that would make what stats do different but at the same time make every stat fairly useful, so it'd diversify character customization, would be cool.

As it is, what stats we add points to is pretty much determined by our class choice. I don't really expect this to go through but it would be quite cool.

Maledictus
03-21-2011, 08:15 PM
I'm sure this has been said before but I couldn't find it just now: recruitable npcs. That was one of the coolest things in DoP, the fact that you could party up (with another class). That, and the other covenants also questing (running into other 'players' from other covenants is brill). I miss that in DC but I guess that's tricky to implement. Both because of balance, and because DC shouldn't be DoP 1.5.
Still, recruitable npcs could offset the difficulty problem, as discussed elsewhere (it was said that DoP had less issues with imbalance because recruits helped with that). A system like them being mercenaries (you'd have to pay them, hire them from a mercenary captain) could make it a costly affair, so you can't get one right away, and maybe can't have one all the time (thinking of balance). I suppose the beastmaster does this, but I've only encountered one once during all my play sessions. And the monsters are rather weak, I found out.

DeathKnight1728
03-26-2011, 08:19 PM
I like where this is going. Maybe since dop was known to have almost permanent recruits, dc could change it up and have mercenaries. This would work differently. Your money will go down on a timely basis and when theres no money left, they leave you to die, giving money more of an asset. You could also give them time off so you dont have to pay them but they will stay in town. If they stay in town too long then they will eventually leave.

bushwhacker2k
03-27-2011, 11:41 AM
I like where this is going. Maybe since dop was known to have almost permanent recruits, dc could change it up and have mercenaries. This would work differently. Your money will go down on a timely basis and when theres no money left, they leave you to die, giving money more of an asset. You could also give them time off so you dont have to pay them but they will stay in town. If they stay in town too long then they will eventually leave.

I'd love to have mercenaries, I tried the thing where the town is continually attacked in 100 waves and got slaughtered on about the 40th wave.

I think it was designed for multiplayer or playing wayyyy below your level. It also certainly didn't help that all the enemies were invisible and thus I couldn't intercept them before they found somebody to attack : /

Antigrav
03-27-2011, 03:04 PM
Maybe this is a good thread to bring this up.

Has anyone else noticed any difficulty in moving and steering a character equipped with +movement items? It doesn't happen to me with temporary speed enhancements (haste, druid stalker, thief speed), just with equipment bonuses.

DeathKnight1728
03-27-2011, 05:04 PM
Ive never actually had problems with steering. What i do is keep my finger on the shift key so naturally when an enemy is close, it slows me down if i keep tapping it.

Maledictus
03-28-2011, 11:04 AM
I've been playing for a while now, and I have an idea of which quests are handed out by which townie, but: wouldn't it be nice to have a central questboard which had all currently open quests on it, and some additional info like who has the quest, where you have to go to solve it etc. Essentially, what's now in the quest window (when accepting a quest) as a pop-up when hovering over the quest in the list on the board. Maybe even include the reputation bar somewhere, because it's connected to the quests. Could be a clickable object somewhere in town, or maybe one npc (a clerk?) that displays this when asked. You'd still have to go to the person to get the quest, the list should only be for information.
By doing this you get a nice feel for what's going on, and you can prioritize more easily. It might also help with finding a quest that is announced by the game (save you a few hovers/clicks on quest givers when looking for the quest), also because the towns people don't have their names easily viewable (another idea?).

Maledictus
04-07-2011, 11:19 AM
Some more stuff I thought of.

It would be cool if item drops are at least somewhat connected to the creature killed. Like, a wampir dropping a plate breast piece is a bit weird. I know this creates all manner of issues, but it's just something that hit me.

Something else that would be cool is what I call skilltriggers. In a way it is implemented in Sacred. The idea is that casting a certain skill triggers the cast of another skill and another if desired. Obviously the skills must already be in the player's arsenal and the connection between the skills should be selected by the player somehow. I was thinking of my paladin/weaponmaster. I'm casting a number of buff skills all the time, but I have to cast them all separately. Not a big deal but still. It would be cool if I could tweak it somewhere that if I cast skill X, skill Y [etc] would also be cast, if mana permits. Again, I know that this creates a load of issues, and it will likely never find its way to the game, but I thought it sounded cool...

It would be nice to see a paperdoll-like interface for the equipment. Just a generic figure outline with the icons for the specific equipment at the correct places on the body. Or, at least, a more intuitive order. I could mod this myself, and now that I think of it I will probably give that a try, but it's something that should be in there standard, I feel.

Haus
04-07-2011, 02:48 PM
The added NPC interaction features in DW is probably the main reason why I decided to start playing DC again and pick up the expansion. I like it so far, but as has been mentioned here, its in a pretty weak state. I really think NPC interaction is important to the game as it adds a little more "RPG" to the "Action RPG", and it gets me involved. The town isn't just a quest/vendor hub anymore. DW has given me a whole new outlook on DC and frankly on the genre, and I think a deeper level of interaction is key.

One of the unique things about this game within the genre is that as I bust my behind to save the town, I start to become attached to it. Even the genre's AAA titles tend to be known for weak(or absent) story, and DC is no exception(no offense intended, simply very little main plot and the world lore is not presented in game), so that I care at all says a lot. It's all in the dynamic "story" being told and its really starting to work by bringing me back to town and involving me there. But its still really the goal, the town, and not the so much the people that I care about; they are just a means to an end. The townspeople are a bit more than just invasion fodder with DW, but they have aren't truly characters yet. Give us a reason to care about the individuals.

I should be remembering their crazy names by the end, and not because one was named Man (I actually had a vendor named Man), but because when Gigitte needed to be rescued she had an ambush waiting for me when I found her. There are far fewer of the latter example than "X is starving" and "Y needs gold mined". Notably that the example is not even that robust; what made Gigitte go renegade while she was captured? Did the rescue take too long? Was she brainwashed? Was she generally unhappy to begin with? The interesting part is that it didn't really matter, it still worked even though it was "just a random event" without a great deal of detail. I don't have to be fully engaged as if its a full on narrative(as interesting yet impossible as that would be), but it was a far cry better than a "starving" quest.

All of that said, after just getting started with DW, I've seen a couple of NPC events turn into something that was perhaps slightly less detailed but just as interesting(or more) as a questline in Oblivion, all randomly generated and dynamically progressing, which is awfully impressive. Action RPGs may be about hacking, slashing, and looting, but its these elements that set DC apart from other titles in the genre, and hopefully they continue to be the focus of refinement.

On to some of the existing parts of this feature that just don't seem "complete":

I had 6 starvation quests pop at the same time shortly after I'd entered the 1st level of a dungeon. One of those NPCs had it again about every 10 minutes. Is the guy gambling away the money I'm giving him? Would it have stopped if I gave him food instead? Do I have other options? Maybe more feedback about what is going on in town would help, but variety is clearly an issue, as it tends to mostly be starving or gold mining... a LOT. Perhaps using dialog to aid in quests and adding more quests that are more personal than "Hey buddy, I found some gold I need you mine for me" would be a great start(why in the world didn't they mine it while marking it anyway?).

I find evidence quests to be as ridiculous as they are annoying. The annoyance: I'm willing to swear that I've gotten a few where the evidence doesn't actually spawn or is hidden under an object, as I've combed the town 5 or 6 times before giving up with no luck and eventually fail them. The ridiculous: if Man steals from Gigitte, why does he leave a paper laying around detailing it? What if you had to talk to townspeople to get the word on the street, then confront the thief to get evidence? The paper evidence makes a little more sense when its a "conspiring with a dungeon boss" scenario, even then it seems a bit silly. It's a good idea, especially the conspiracy version, which I'm guessing can lead to an attack if failed, but it's in dire need of some fleshing out.

Why does giving people money not affect happiness? The donation bliss buff really isn't that much of a reward for donating. If money is too easy, what about giving them high quality items? The townsfolk have some interesting new stats which affect their actions, but ultimately I feel I have little power to affect the stats and thus can't do much to influence actions. Paying people not to fight every 10 minutes isn't a fun solution.

I had one NPC become a "town luminary", I believe because she reached 100 Happiness. Great, but what did that mean? Best I could tell, she didn't seem to do anything special, and I really had very little part in getting her to that point. I had a couple of quests from her, but nothing extraordinary. I'd really like to see a more direct causal relationship of world events and direct interaction to happiness/wealth. Perhaps talking to people around town will give you hints as to what is causing those values to change, as you aren't always around to see whose jealous of whom, whose been shopping, and whatever else they randomly do to affect those values while you're slaving away in the dungeon. I don't know if I'd make it a part of the log, but those events seem to need more attention than they get.

I'm on the fence about it, but I'm even wondering if it would be interesting to see happy, wealthy townsfolk as a requirement for victory, perhaps if only an advanced town option. At any rate, I'm looking forward to see this feature develop.

Bluddy
04-07-2011, 04:42 PM
The added NPC interaction features in DW is probably the main reason why I decided to start playing DC again and pick up the expansion. I like it so far, but as has been mentioned here, its in a pretty weak state. I really think NPC interaction is important to the game as it adds a little more "RPG" to the "Action RPG", and it gets me involved. The town isn't just a quest/vendor hub anymore. DW has given me a whole new outlook on DC and frankly on the genre, and I think a deeper level of interaction is key.

One of the unique things about this game within the genre is that as I bust my behind to save the town, I start to become attached to it. Even the genre's AAA titles tend to be known for weak(or absent) story, and DC is no exception(no offense intended, simply very little main plot and the world lore is not presented in game), so that I care at all says a lot. It's all in the dynamic "story" being told and its really starting to work by bringing me back to town and involving me there. But its still really the goal, the town, and not the so much the people that I care about; they are just a means to an end. The townspeople are a bit more than just invasion fodder with DW, but they have aren't truly characters yet. Give us a reason to care about the individuals.

I should be remembering their crazy names by the end, and not because one was named Man (I actually had a vendor named Man), but because when Gigitte needed to be rescued she had an ambush waiting for me when I found her. There are far fewer of the latter example than "X is starving" and "Y needs gold mined". Notably that the example is not even that robust; what made Gigitte go renegade while she was captured? Did the rescue take too long? Was she brainwashed? Was she generally unhappy to begin with? The interesting part is that it didn't really matter, it still worked even though it was "just a random event" without a great deal of detail. I don't have to be fully engaged as if its a full on narrative(as interesting yet impossible as that would be), but it was a far cry better than a "starving" quest.

All of that said, after just getting started with DW, I've seen a couple of NPC events turn into something that was perhaps slightly less detailed but just as interesting(or more) as a questline in Oblivion, all randomly generated and dynamically progressing, which is awfully impressive. Action RPGs may be about hacking, slashing, and looting, but its these elements that set DC apart from other titles in the genre, and hopefully they continue to be the focus of refinement.

On to some of the existing parts of this feature that just don't seem "complete":

I had 6 starvation quests pop at the same time shortly after I'd entered the 1st level of a dungeon. One of those NPCs had it again about every 10 minutes. Is the guy gambling away the money I'm giving him? Would it have stopped if I gave him food instead? Do I have other options? Maybe more feedback about what is going on in town would help, but variety is clearly an issue, as it tends to mostly be starving or gold mining... a LOT. Perhaps using dialog to aid in quests and adding more quests that are more personal than "Hey buddy, I found some gold I need you mine for me" would be a great start(why in the world didn't they mine it while marking it anyway?).

I find evidence quests to be as ridiculous as they are annoying. The annoyance: I'm willing to swear that I've gotten a few where the evidence doesn't actually spawn or is hidden under an object, as I've combed the town 5 or 6 times before giving up with no luck and eventually fail them. The ridiculous: if Man steals from Gigitte, why does he leave a paper laying around detailing it? What if you had to talk to townspeople to get the word on the street, then confront the thief to get evidence? The paper evidence makes a little more sense when its a "conspiring with a dungeon boss" scenario, even then it seems a bit silly. It's a good idea, especially the conspiracy version, which I'm guessing can lead to an attack if failed, but it's in dire need of some fleshing out.

Why does giving people money not affect happiness? The donation bliss buff really isn't that much of a reward for donating. If money is too easy, what about giving them high quality items? The townsfolk have some interesting new stats which affect their actions, but ultimately I feel I have little power to affect the stats and thus can't do much to influence actions. Paying people not to fight every 10 minutes isn't a fun solution.

I had one NPC become a "town luminary", I believe because she reached 100 Happiness. Great, but what did that mean? Best I could tell, she didn't seem to do anything special, and I really had very little part in getting her to that point. I had a couple of quests from her, but nothing extraordinary. I'd really like to see a more direct causal relationship of world events and direct interaction to happiness/wealth. Perhaps talking to people around town will give you hints as to what is causing those values to change, as you aren't always around to see whose jealous of whom, whose been shopping, and whatever else they randomly do to affect those values while you're slaving away in the dungeon. I don't know if I'd make it a part of the log, but those events seem to need more attention than they get.

I'm on the fence about it, but I'm even wondering if it would be interesting to see happy, wealthy townsfolk as a requirement for victory, perhaps if only an advanced town option. At any rate, I'm looking forward to see this feature develop.

Great analysis. Reminds me of the thoughts I had when I started playing DW. I think that just as DC made the hidden things that happened in DoP (bosses sending scouts etc) more apparent, we need another iteration of DC or an expansion that'll make the human dynamics clearer.

I like the evidence quests because they're different. It's nice to do some sleuthing, even if it is as basic as it is. But you're completely right that the NPCs could use some heavy improvement in terms of interaction. The problem is that there's a gazillion ideas one could have, but almost each one of them is very hard to implement with the current system. For example, you might be sent to the dungeon to figure out who betrayed the town. The traitor could have been bribed by a boss... I'd also like to see NPCs have more meaningful things to say, especially to each other.

The problem is that there's tons of stuff to do here, but not necessarily in terms of the main gameplay. Do we really need another class or 2? Do we need more skills? I'm not sure. So what would another expansion add in addition to improved NPC interaction? Perhaps some story based quests with specific bosses as in DoP? Or an underground dark elf kingdom, as was suggested elsewhere?

Haus
04-07-2011, 06:00 PM
I like the evidence quests because they're different. It's nice to do some sleuthing, even if it is as basic as it is.
I agree really, I don't hate them, and the variety is nice, if trivial. The same can be said for mining and starving, but those are overused. The other quests I've run across are decent, and I've not seen them repeatedly. The evidence actually has a lot of potential, so I singled it out. However, even if the fundamentals of the quest go unchanged, I hope it gets some tweaks. If the paper was, in fact, existing and someplace I could get to during the few quests I gave up on(I still don't believe it was), it's really not fun if I have to waste that much time on the silly thing since it amounts to burning time in town while the greater threat looms below.

The problem is that there's tons of stuff to do here, but not necessarily in terms of the main gameplay. Do we really need another class or 2? Do we need more skills? I'm not sure. So what would another expansion add in addition to improved NPC interaction? Perhaps some story based quests with specific bosses as in DoP? Or an underground dark elf kingdom, as was suggested elsewhere?
Indeed there are plenty of areas for improvement, as will always be the case and is even the case with games with large dev teams. Balancing classes and skills will be a never-ending battle. There is always more content and art that can be added of course. I feel like the UI needs a lot of help(doubly so for multiplayer, pause options please!). Even if its just expanding its moddability and turning it over to the community, I think it would be beneficial. Then there is always the pipe-dream that the game engine gets an audio/visual overhaul(though I had to give up on the dream, I spent my college education in audio production and as a result the sound in this game is rough on my ears). But for the most part, I accept balance as on on-going process and everything else is icing on the cake. The NPC interaction though, to me, is a main part of the Demon War product(it's a bullet point in the features list) that is still deserving of some ironing out this go-around, and will likely continue to be what I watch most closely and critique most often.

In the end I'm happy with the product I have, and I'm glad there is a community can discuss it in a place where the dev listens. I'll be hoping that it continues to go in a direction that keeps me interested.

forevernomad
04-11-2011, 12:43 PM
I have to agree with the most recent comments about npc interaction in DW, it's clever but could be better.

I was doing some quick shopping in town and saw a couple of townsfolk flirting, later down in the depths of a dungeon, a notice popped up telling me they got married, as I was closing in on completing the town it got attacked, but I was to late to save her husband, I felt so bad about it I actually dropped the town unfinished.

Little things like funerals, weddings, parties, children and pets/livestock in town would also help to pull you in to the game even further and really want to help these people.

But I think that lots of these could become much more interesting if there was more than one town involved, then there could be a huge number of additional quest types to choose from, no only do you have to rescue your town (still only one town) but that other towns could then be available to extend the basic quests.

Other towns could be used for:
-npcs to come and go from
-perhaps instead of finding a new warmaster in the dungeon you have to go find him in another town
-these towns could have modifiers, that could make them likely to attack, trade with, or protect your town.
-quests could dovetail with other towns, so you might get a 'my sister has been kidnapped by tom from tomtown' and when you get to tomtown, you find Steve that can tell you she was taken to dungeon level X in your town either by tom or that Tom is dead and Bob has her now.
-have random encounters on the way to a town
-have the option to call for aid from towns if you're in trouble, perhaps it will cost you lots.
-towns could become blocked off by raiders, thus purposefully ending quests.
-if food shipments are lost, go buy supplies from a nearby town to keep the prices down
-plagues/curses could be passed on to/brought in by travellers from towns unless you can block off your town, if you can't, you then need to cure all the infected towns.
-all the traitor quests can be followed through to towns
-an actual world economy
-messengers handing out cross town quests
-the simple idea that you are now in a massive world with lots of towns and villages, instead of one lone town on the whole planet.

I'm not thinking full blown surface maps, but just using the town gate as another type of teleport, one that lists the towns available, then the system could generate a small surface area in event of a random encounter, otherwise you arrive in the chosen town unharmed.

I really love the game as it is, but adding a whole new level to the quests is difficult with only one town and you do really start to care about some of the quest givers especially some of the townspeople, so letting them throw a party when you stop an invasion would justify the reason for Din sending you there, you are actually making their lives better, you are a hero in their eyes at least.

Haus
04-12-2011, 01:31 PM
I was doing some quick shopping in town and saw a couple of townsfolk flirting, later down in the depths of a dungeon, a notice popped up telling me they got married
Interesting, I've caught a flirt event in town before but I had no idea that this was a possibility. I find that to support my point that, as Bluddy more eloquently put it, a higher level of transparency will probably do a lot for the NPC interactivity features even under the current iteration.

It would have been interesting if between those two events a quest became available to obtain some sort of token of affection for the suitor to give to his beloved. I think another interesting quest addition that would likely be simple to add would be a vengeance quest as a result of his untimely demise, e.g. "X monsters killed my husband/wife/friend. Please kill Y of them". In nothing else, it throws players a consolation prize for their NPC casualities.

forevernomad
04-12-2011, 02:19 PM
Interesting, I've caught a flirt event in town before but I had no idea that this was a possibility. I find that to support my point that, as Bluddy more eloquently put it, a higher level of transparency will probably do a lot for the NPC interactivity features even under the current iteration.

It would have been interesting if between those two events a quest became available to obtain some sort of token of affection for the suitor to give to his beloved. I think another interesting quest addition that would likely be simple to add would be a vengeance quest as a result of his untimely demise, e.g. "X monsters killed my husband/wife/friend. Please kill Y of them". In nothing else, it throws players a consolation prize for their NPC casualities.

absolutely! Things like that would greatly increase the depth of the game. Perhaps just adding a focus to some of the current quests, may be digging a gold vein so said token could be crafted, still a mining quest but it now has a purpose you can follow.

edobrien
04-13-2011, 05:06 PM
NO !

Please don't nerf my Thief / Druid :( I mean, there's nothing -really- wrong with attacking too fast that the character appears to not be even moving..it is logical! The movement is too fast to catch with one's eyes..

Besides, it's the only way the single-attack hybrids would be able to catch up to other multi-attacking melees..

yeah, no cap!

DeathKnight1728
04-15-2011, 12:55 PM
One of the next things that would be good to work on would be the Character Achievements like in Depths of Peril. Would add a large amount of things to look forward to and achieve instead of just skill levels and stat points. Especially for the mages.

Arjun123
04-15-2011, 03:37 PM
I've been playing a druid character lately specializing in the earthquake spell, which has been a lot of fun. Earthquake, like some other spells, dramatically increases the chance of cave ins. But it seems a bit strange that the ceilings of the caves are so unstable, while the floors are so stable. I'd recommend that any spell that increases the chance of a cave in also have a small chance of opening up a hole in the floor, a pit trap, that would drop you down a level or two. This would give a more realistic sense of what it might be like to foolishly play around with explosives or explosive spells in an underground environment.

Shadow
04-15-2011, 04:06 PM
I've thought about that before, but I have never thought of a good way to do it. I could just literally add a pit trap I guess.

Arjun123
04-15-2011, 04:46 PM
Adding a pit trap would work, I think. If so, perhaps the Disarm Trap could give you a chance at avoiding it. This would be a "natural" pitfall trap, but there's no reason it couldn't be avoided by those who are skilled enough. But please make the chance of such a trap opening up small; the usefulness of skills such as earthquake would definitely lessen if the chance of triggering such a pitfall was too large.

Maledictus
04-15-2011, 07:07 PM
When hovering over attack stats in the character screen the text tells me I have a X% chance to hit a level Y creature, where level Y is my own level (I assume). But I'm usually fighting creatures that are above my level. Just now I was trying to hit a monster that was 4 levels above my own, and I was most certainly not hitting it X% of the time. More like X-50%. Is it possible to add some info to that balloon window that allows me to figure out what my to-hit chance is if the monster isn't my own level? Same for defence I guess.

During sessions last week I ran into the same dungeon type twice, with only 1 other dungeon type in between (so from type A to B and then A again). Is there something in place that prevents me from getting the same dungeon types in an x amount of games? Like, the last 4 worlds should not repeat dungeon types (for the same character).

Shadow
04-15-2011, 07:18 PM
Is there something in place that prevents me from getting the same dungeon types in an x amount of games? Like, the last 4 worlds should not repeat dungeon types (for the same character).

No, it's just purely random.

Manumitted
04-15-2011, 08:53 PM
When hovering over attack stats in the character screen the text tells me I have a X% chance to hit a level Y creature, where level Y is my own level (I assume). But I'm usually fighting creatures that are above my level. Just now I was trying to hit a monster that was 4 levels above my own, and I was most certainly not hitting it X% of the time. More like X-50%. Is it possible to add some info to that balloon window that allows me to figure out what my to-hit chance is if the monster isn't my own level? Same for defence I guess.

It's a linear function, so just ratio the mob's level to your level and multiply the result by the tooltip's chance to miss (100% - to-hit) to get the effective chance to miss* for an average mob of that level. Champions, Elites, and certain mob characteristics like Stone Skin, Gargoyle, or Minor/Major Defender/Berserker will alter this chance.

*Example: L10 character with 92% chance to hit. Against L15 mob, that becomes 15/10 * 8% = 12% chance to miss/88% to-hit. Against L5 mob, that's 5/10 * 8% = 4% chance to miss/96% to-hit.

As far as your hit problems go, you're probably lumping non-hits in with outright misses. Non-hits are hits whose effect the target managed to avoid through its Defense. They can be downright lethal to the attacker if the target gets 4-5 in a row, as increasingly happens at upper levels. It's not that hard to get a brief string of 40-50% successes, or whatever the mob's actual defense chance.

forevernomad
04-16-2011, 05:42 AM
I've thought about that before, but I have never thought of a good way to do it. I could just literally add a pit trap I guess.

Could you have an invisible teleporter that takes you to the floor directly under the hole, so when you destroy a pillar for example you create a pit trap on this floor that ports you into the rubble on the floor below.

I'm guessing that there's no way to be able to have an actual hole in the floor so you can see down, but that that would be pretty awesome.

Shadow
04-18-2011, 01:53 PM
In general, I haven't done this yet because it would make sense to add a permanent hole to the ground, but that might make it impossible to get to a required quest on the other side of the hole. I could easily add a pit trap, but a "trap" doesn't really feel right.

forevernomad
04-18-2011, 02:26 PM
perhaps a new item, a board, add a chest item holding it somewhere on the same level as a hole so if you have this issue and you can find it you can use the board to walk over the hole. or a one use teleport item like the spell of the same name.

Bluddy
04-19-2011, 03:12 PM
In general, I haven't done this yet because it would make sense to add a permanent hole to the ground, but that might make it impossible to get to a required quest on the other side of the hole. I could easily add a pit trap, but a "trap" doesn't really feel right.

Only thing I can think of here is to make a trap that looks like massive cracks in the ground -- not a hole per se. Walking over the trap would make you walk slowly (as you have to be careful) and there'd be a chance of falling through. An animation of the cracks falling before the trap activates would be cool. It wouldn't be a real hole though, and even after you fall through it would just be cracks, with a certain chance of falling through.

To decrease your potential of falling through, you could freeze the surface or use anything that makes you move faster. Light touch could also affect the chance of falling through.

Maledictus
04-19-2011, 07:11 PM
Food items stack up to 10, so I have many stacks in my bags. When I put my food item in quick key slot 0 it still says 10 as the amount of items I have, while I have more than one stack of 10. Why not display the actual amount in the quick slot?

Valgor
04-20-2011, 08:38 AM
I'd like so see a tooltip for the dungeon level name (next to the minimap) that tells you in brief about your quests and their progress, if applicable,
on this particular level, if there's currently any you accepted to do.

Arjun123
04-24-2011, 12:21 AM
I've been playing a ranger which has reached level 50, and I haven't had a bag drop at all over the past 30 levels. This wouldn't be that big of a deal, if it wasn't also the case that my past few towns have had no vendors. It seems unusual that bag drops occur so rarely. Would it be possible to increase their frequency?

Caal
04-24-2011, 08:37 AM
I've been playing a ranger which has reached level 50, and I haven't had a bag drop at all over the past 30 levels. This wouldn't be that big of a deal, if it wasn't also the case that my past few towns have had no vendors. It seems unusual that bag drops occur so rarely. Would it be possible to increase their frequency?

You might want to check this thread. One poster said the mod doesn't work, but I still think it does. I have a lvl 58 toon that is still getting bag drops with the mod - not frequently, but often enough.

http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3530

Bak
04-24-2011, 12:30 PM
I've been playing a ranger which has reached level 50, and I haven't had a bag drop at all over the past 30 levels. This wouldn't be that big of a deal, if it wasn't also the case that my past few towns have had no vendors. It seems unusual that bag drops occur so rarely. Would it be possible to increase their frequency?

While a bit boring, make your next town level 20 (or whenever you last saw a bag), and farm until more bags drop. Then abandon the town.

For my non-hardcore characters, if any of them find extra sacks/bags, they go in the community chest for any new characters I make.

EternalChampion
04-24-2011, 04:36 PM
You might want to check this thread. One poster said the mod doesn't work, but I still think it does. I have a lvl 58 toon that is still getting bag drops with the mod - not frequently, but often enough.

http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3530

The mod works. My (now level 51) pure Demon Hunter has more bags than he knows what to do with. I've made the shared stash all the biggest bags, personal stash and what I carry around all the same. And one of those bags contains nothing but... bags.

Arjun123
04-25-2011, 12:20 AM
Thanks for the tips! My toon recently started a new town that has a vendor, so that problem is resolved. But I think I'll try the mod to prevent this problem in the future. But it would be nice if the unmodified game could be tweeked in the next update to increase the frequency of bag drops.

Bluddy
04-25-2011, 04:17 PM
Thanks for the tips! My toon recently started a new town that has a vendor, so that problem is resolved. But I think I'll try the mod to prevent this problem in the future. But it would be nice if the unmodified game could be tweeked in the next update to increase the frequency of bag drops.

The issue may be that the lower level bags (4 and 6 slots) have twice the chance of occurring compared to higher level bags.

SamF7
04-27-2011, 04:32 AM
One of the FEW things I would like to see added are the green and red "bangs" over the heads of the villagers with quest notices to be added to the overhead map screen.

It gets old "doing the rounds" through the city looking for the quest villagers.

SamF7

Bluddy
04-27-2011, 04:34 AM
One of the FEW things I would like to see added are the green and red "bangs" over the heads of the villagers with quest notices to be added to the overhead map screen.

It gets old "doing the rounds" through the city looking for the quest villagers.

SamF7

Um... are you playing with the latest patch? Because that has been added.

SamF7
04-27-2011, 04:57 AM
Um... are you playing with the latest patch? Because that has been added.

1.024? Specifically, I'm talking about adding the indicators to the OVERHEAD map view (hit M, I think). I currently don't see anything except the dots of where the villagers are. I still have to walk close enough to every villager to see the indicator appear on the minimap (map in top right hand corner).

Is that the map you mean? It's nice having it there, of course, but I would like it on the big, global map view, also (M key).

It's not a super big deal, of course, but it would save a little bit of time wandering back and forth through the village.

SamF7

Bluddy
04-27-2011, 05:56 AM
1.024? Specifically, I'm talking about adding the indicators to the OVERHEAD map view (hit M, I think). I currently don't see anything except the dots of where the villagers are. I still have to walk close enough to every villager to see the indicator appear on the minimap (map in top right hand corner).

Is that the map you mean? It's nice having it there, of course, but I would like it on the big, global map view, also (M key).

It's not a super big deal, of course, but it would save a little bit of time wandering back and forth through the village.

SamF7

Ah ok. Now I understand. I don't turn on the map view when I'm in town, which is why I didn't think of it.

Antigrav
04-27-2011, 09:52 AM
An overhead map showing current questgivers would save some time, except for the wandering villagers in need.

More useful and certainly more realistic would be to have the needy walk to the center of town, or at least the periphery of the town square. Looking for help? Don't just hang around in your shack!

Bak
04-27-2011, 11:24 AM
Don't forget that Din is punishing our characters for bad past deeds.

Having the character eating potato chips in front of the TV, saying that the needy and helpless should drag their backsides to the character's house so the character doesn't have to get off the sofa, is not going to earn Din brownie points. :D

(I exaggerate, but I don't think the current amount of "work" for quests is out of line.)

Antigrav
04-27-2011, 05:14 PM
Don't forget that Din is punishing our characters for bad past deeds.

Having the character eating potato chips in front of the TV, saying that the needy and helpless should drag their backsides to the character's house so the character doesn't have to get off the sofa, is not going to earn Din brownie points. :D

(I exaggerate, but I don't think the current amount of "work" for quests is out of line.)

You get potato chips?!

I was just going to suggest as well that as many of the townsfolk don't seem very occupied, they could get busy selling my loot and shopping around the various vendors.

SamF7
04-27-2011, 05:30 PM
One of my townsfolk last night was 63 CP in the hole. SIXTY THREE??
I play with poverty on......he almost didn't get saved.

SamF7

Bak
04-27-2011, 06:15 PM
One of my townsfolk last night was 63 CP in the hole. SIXTY THREE??
I play with poverty on......he almost didn't get saved.

You could have fought/killed him, but I guess Din would have made you pay for the funeral. :p

I tried to get the Warmaster to explain how he got 5 SP in the hole (level 99 town), but I guess what happens in Vindomora stays in Vindomora.