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m0stly_harmless
02-27-2011, 12:42 PM
I'm going to start a seperate thread to HOPEFULLY get some of this archer stuff addressed. I really needs to be...

The Archer:

- Multiple arrow shot. The angle that (from left to right, aiming up) that the arrows come out is not equal. The first and second arrows seem ok (looks like a 330 Degree, 0 Degree), that third one almost comes out at a 90 degree angle to the second (middle) one <- this one needs to be made to be 30 Degree to make it a "coned" spread. This makes for a very awkward way to clear a room, not to mention that it wastes a shot in 90% of the circumstances.

- The cone spread should be made a little narrower. Perhaps a 30 to 35 Degree spread from center on both sides, because as it stands, it's a pretty useless skill in any location other than a WIDE room. In those twisty, narrow dungeons, it's just a waste of points and mana.

**** We still need to improve the BOW drops (and DPS for said bow in relation to their requirements.).


*******************

EDIT: Seems that depending on the aiming angle of the character, the angle of the outside shot does a 90 degree thing - seems that either of the outside shots take their turn doing the 90 degree thing. Programming miscalculation?

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm159/m0stly_harmless/Other%20forums/ss0003.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm159/m0stly_harmless/Other%20forums/ss0002.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm159/m0stly_harmless/Other%20forums/ss0001.jpg

m0stly_harmless
02-27-2011, 01:01 PM
I'm also including a few snaps of proof that the requirements vs. DSP/Level of the BOWS needs to be nerfed - alot - when compared to any other weapon (I've included a sword I've had to equip as the current level bows all suck monkey balls).

Besides, there is no logical way to equip any of these even with a strength/dex potion (if you can even find one with enough stats that your level can use) as you can only use ONE of those potions at a time. Finding armour that bumps stats up is also redundant as the bonuses they give are minimal when compared to the bow's requirements.

Really, when one thinks of it, it's like outfitting a level 45 Weaponmaster with a level 12/20DPS sword - completely rediculous - and that's why the Archer class is no fun to play with.

Here's my current character stats and the bow I currently have (found) and some bows I've picked up.

There is NO POSSIBLE way I'll ever equip those anytime soon, and when I can, their DPS will be useless anyways...

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm159/m0stly_harmless/Other%20forums/ss0006.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm159/m0stly_harmless/Other%20forums/ss0007.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm159/m0stly_harmless/Other%20forums/ss0008.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm159/m0stly_harmless/Other%20forums/ss0009.jpg

***** Continued... ******

m0stly_harmless
02-27-2011, 01:01 PM
I've had to equip my ARCHER with a freggin sword so I could mow down baddies. Clearly, what's the point of even having a bow class or archer character if this is what needs to be done to get ahead in the game?

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm159/m0stly_harmless/Other%20forums/ss0010.jpg

This is the only bow I've found that I can use at the moment... Like I mentioned, what the point when the sword will slay quicker and better?

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm159/m0stly_harmless/Other%20forums/ss0011.jpg


AND... If none of the above sways anyone, take a look at THIS bow we (Jorlen & I) found while questing...

Can someone please give me a valid, plausible reason for THOSE requirements?

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm159/m0stly_harmless/Other%20forums/ss0004.jpg

Seriously. This needs to be looked at.

/rant :D

Thanks.

benloran
02-27-2011, 01:14 PM
I haven't played an archer at all, but looking at your screenshots in your first post about multishot, it almost looks as if there should be 4 shots and one of them is missing. Have you tested to see if a monster that appears to be in the gap between the shots might still be taking damage? Could be a drawing error, perhaps?

m0stly_harmless
02-27-2011, 02:39 PM
Have you tested to see if a monster that appears to be in the gap between the shots might still be taking damage? Could be a drawing error, perhaps?

It's a 3 shot, multishot. If the "bullet" doesn't hit anything, no damage is dealt. It's not the drawing that is screwed up, it's the tragectory.

Crisses
02-27-2011, 03:17 PM
My son gave me a bow many levels ago that I'm still using at level 49. I think I've been using it since the 20s. He found it during multiplayer, also. With all my bonuses I get 105 DPS. I have STR 89, Dex 183. It requires 48/96.

It's starting to "fail" -- I have not found a bow ANYTHING like it for over 15 levels, including multiplayer play. Heck, I'd take your cursed bow at this point.... I need an upgrade very seriously. Bow weaponsmiths are basically useless regardless of dungeon level -- it's so rare to find a good bow, not even talking about a great bow. This was a great bow when I was level 20-something, now it's an OK bow at level 49. It will be obsoleted any moment.

Screenshot of bow stats....

Manumitted
02-27-2011, 04:27 PM
My first question would be what made you spend 2.5 levels of stat points by level 9 on Spirit? Those 12 points should have gone into DEX for an archer.

I'm glad I'm not playing whatever patch (or its successors) increased the already excessive DEX requirement for a bow from 1.5X STR requirement to 2X STR. That's ridiculous. 1.3X would be plenty. Real bows take nontrivial strength to pull, after all.

Most bows are not viable without a large +Damage%, +Max Damage%, or +Max Damage enchantment. The unique bows are useful for their considerably lower stat requirements. Look for Blood Let, Hell Fury, or Death Knell unique bows in the levels to come.

I've had my best results with bows putting them in the hands of a pure Ranger with high-level Stalker spell active. Doubling DPS on top of the Bow Mastery bonus makes them fairly effective. This approach does sacrifice the bow's ranged combat ability.

alstein
02-27-2011, 05:20 PM
My first question would be what made you spend 2.5 levels of stat points by level 9 on Spirit? Those 12 points should have gone into DEX for an archer.

I'm glad I'm not playing whatever patch (or its successors) increased the already excessive DEX requirement for a bow from 1.5X STR requirement to 2X STR. That's ridiculous. 1.3X would be plenty. Real bows take nontrivial strength to pull, after all.

Most bows are not viable without a large +Damage%, +Max Damage%, or +Max Damage enchantment. The unique bows are useful for their considerably lower stat requirements. Look for Blood Let, Hell Fury, or Death Knell unique bows in the levels to come.

I've had my best results with bows putting them in the hands of a pure Ranger with high-level Stalker spell active. Doubling DPS on top of the Bow Mastery bonus makes them fairly effective. This approach does sacrifice the bow's ranged combat ability.

The sub was Paladin. Half those points should have gone to STR (Stunning Blow/Crushing Blow for Pallies is good). Pally's a good compliment to Archer- stunning blow/crushing blow/regen/chainmail all have use.

Archer requirements for bows are too high, but not as bad as dagger/mage requirements (still too high IMO, but not as bad)

Multishot should "home" I think, though if it does it should be a 6pt skill.

The Archer speedup skill should probably be passive like it is in Magitek's mod, but not as good.

Bow Mastery should add some armor piercing also.

Crisses
02-27-2011, 05:48 PM
I think one problem is the number of "Classes" of item in the game for archers. i.e. Maces come in clubs & 2 handed varieties. Swords come in all lengths and sizes. And warrior classes can arm whatever highest DPS item comes across their plate with good extra bonuses like armor pierce or extra crit chance.

In my own item-drop experience, if a warrior started the game and said "I'm only going to use 2 handed swords" they'd have a similar problem as the archers. Maybe we need other items i.e. crossbows, arbalests, etc. that are in addition to bows that use the same animation but allow the item generation system a little more "ranged archer-class weapon fodder".

So Crossbows could require more STR than DEX, do more Damage, lower firing rate (except the "Repeating" mod that speeds the crossbows up). Composite Bows require less STR to pull, and fire faster. Japanese Yumi....?

This would give the item generation engine more things to happen across in random generation....some additional unique bows, too.

Manumitted
02-27-2011, 07:05 PM
I think one problem is the number of "Classes" of item in the game for archers. i.e. Maces come in clubs & 2 handed varieties. Swords come in all lengths and sizes. And warrior classes can arm whatever highest DPS item comes across their plate with good extra bonuses like armor pierce or extra crit chance.

That's probably part of it. Having what seems like 2/3 of the weapons in the game theoretically usable by a warrior almost guarantees that he'll be able to find something with nice DPS/enchants on it. Mages have the luxury of ignoring DPS on their weapons and just waiting for Cast Time or +Crit enchants. Even thieves get plenty of nice daggers and 1h swords to play with. This must be part of the reason that weaponsmiths illogically seem to have 1/3 of their inventory devoted to bows, when 90% or some similar supermajority of characters can't use them. It's a brute-force attempt to get a halfway useful bow to spawn, but it doesn't work very often.

Actually, now that I think about it, weaponsmiths in general aren't that useful. Most of their non-unique stuff has infeasible DPS, and weapons cost too much and have too high stat requirements to buy them for their enchants for part-time use as magic find, money find, or trap disarm gear. Armor is often useful for reasons other than its AC, making the vast expanse of suboptimal armor pieces more desirable.

Crisses
02-27-2011, 08:22 PM
This must be part of the reason that weaponsmiths illogically seem to have 1/3 of their inventory devoted to bows, when 90% or some similar supermajority of characters can't use them. It's a brute-force attempt to get a halfway useful bow to spawn, but it doesn't work very often.

Uh -- no, I'm afraid that's murphy's law at work ;) (or the truly-not-random-number-generator that is our computers...) When my Hunter/Trickster goes shopping, I don't see that many lousy bows.

I do see them in the stores, I do find them when I'm adventuring -- but I don't have "hide lousy items" on, so they're usually not useful to me. I wish the hide lousy item feature was more specific. I need things like bags: does that feature hide bags? They rarely show up at the vendors in town, rarely drop. I have had ONE character with the luck of the draw (out of over 20 characters) and found satchels and such at town in the stores. I'm lucky if every other character found one bag better than a pouch in town. I had a character make it past 10th level with nothing but the basic inventory before she found bags. Go figure.

m0stly_harmless
02-27-2011, 09:07 PM
Uh -- no, I'm afraid that's murphy's law at work ;) (or the truly-not-random-number-generator that is our computers...) When my Hunter/Trickster goes shopping, I don't see that many lousy bows.

I do see them in the stores, I do find them when I'm adventuring -- but I don't have "hide lousy items" on, so they're usually not useful to me. I wish the hide lousy item feature was more specific. I need things like bags: does that feature hide bags? They rarely show up at the vendors in town, rarely drop. I have had ONE character with the luck of the draw (out of over 20 characters) and found satchels and such at town in the stores. I'm lucky if every other character found one bag better than a pouch in town. I had a character make it past 10th level with nothing but the basic inventory before she found bags. Go figure.

Just so you know, your limited bag drops isn't affected by the "hide lousy items" thing.

I don't have that checked off and I find myself having to use bags from my mules just so I can go adventuring with my "real" characters.

Something in the drop formula was tweaked and it broke the bag/fancy items drops.

Hell, I get a woody just finding ANY bag at a vendor now. That's pretty pathetic.

Crisses
02-27-2011, 09:22 PM
hahah -- Hey, I'm in a game with random vendors popping in all the time. Champion level 50 on the East server. I have some hand-me-down bows I could give you. If you can get in. Otherwise you could start a lower level game and I'll join in -- just not ready to lose the town with the merry vendors popping in & out yet :) A bow smith died in the dungeon as I was running up to help -- I was cursing a whole lot.

m0stly_harmless
02-28-2011, 10:11 AM
hahah -- Hey, I'm in a game with random vendors popping in all the time. Champion level 50 on the East server. I have some hand-me-down bows I could give you. If you can get in. Otherwise you could start a lower level game and I'll join in -- just not ready to lose the town with the merry vendors popping in & out yet :) A bow smith died in the dungeon as I was running up to help -- I was cursing a whole lot.

I mourn the loss of the Bower. :eek: Shame on you for not saving his ass. :P LOL

If that offer for bows still stands, we can setup a time & place. Heaven knows I can use them. I'll join your game, pillage what you have to offer and jump out.

(uh, what you want in return?)

My bow guy is a paltry level 13 or something like that - I'm NOT stepping into a level 50 dungeon with him... LMAO! It would be way too painful to watch.


**********************************

NOTE: This does not fix the obviously ongoing issues listed in this tread for the bow class... :P

Bluddy
02-28-2011, 10:23 AM
Just so you know, your limited bag drops isn't affected by the "hide lousy items" thing.

I don't have that checked off and I find myself having to use bags from my mules just so I can go adventuring with my "real" characters.

Something in the drop formula was tweaked and it broke the bag/fancy items drops.

Hell, I get a woody just finding ANY bag at a vendor now. That's pretty pathetic.

I haven't had any trouble finding bags myself. I think it's just very very random.

m0stly_harmless
02-28-2011, 10:27 AM
I haven't had any trouble finding bags myself. I think it's just very very random.

Compared to what it used to be, I have better odds finding a GOOD bow.


Bad da ching.


:D

Bluddy
02-28-2011, 10:32 AM
Based on Shadow's response in another thread, I'm wondering: can bows even miss? Do they use the attack/defense attributes at all?

m0stly_harmless
02-28-2011, 10:35 AM
Which response? And to what are you referring to?

Bluddy
02-28-2011, 10:38 AM
Which response? And to what are you referring to?

Long distance attacks by monsters don't use attack/defense, which is why long distance monsters are gimped. I made the comment that I think they're gimped TOO much. Anyway, I'm wondering if the bow uses the same system ie. no attack/defense calculations.

Crisses
02-28-2011, 10:47 AM
I crit and get deep wounds too often to be able to tell. :/ The bow has mods on it, I used barbed arrow, and I'm often getting the stealth bonus (in addition to whatever else I'm wearing). When DON'T I crit? I don't need huge DPS to be dealing serious pain. Usually in the back of my enemies to boot. I 1-shot out of stealth, or even 1-shot and remain stealthed all the time. It's good to be the queen. :P

Crisses
02-28-2011, 10:55 AM
I mourn the loss of the Bower. :eek: Shame on you for not saving his ass. :P LOL

I know. I know. I was several corridors away when I heard the "I'm in pain grunts" and realized "That's not my character! That's an NPC!" So I hoofed it over just in time to hear the dying wail and see "Bowyer" or whatever over her head. Waaaah!


If that offer for bows still stands, we can setup a time & place. Heaven knows I can use them. I'll join your game, pillage what you have to offer and jump out.

(uh, what you want in return?)


What? Nothing really. I'm just nice that way. :)

However, if you don't want that cursed bow, I could take it and give it a whirl. If it beats what I'm using, you can have the one I've got now. It's a real winner -- doesn't look like much but it has low stat requirements, decent DPS, but 120% crit & magic crit, armor piercing, extra health, extra mana, etc. Can you pull off the 48STR/96DEX required? Probably not at level 13, but if you make it to around level 20 you might.

My bow guy is a paltry level 13 or something like that - I'm NOT stepping into a level 50 dungeon with him... LMAO! It would be way too painful to watch.

For whom? :) just kidding. I have no need to wish death on you.


NOTE: This does not fix the obviously ongoing issues listed in this tread for the bow class... :P

No -- it doesn't... I have to open up to multiplayer trade in the hopes that someone has found a better bow than what I have. I keep dumping tremendous points into barbed arrow & stealth which is why my bow is still viable at level 50, but really to have the same bow for 25 levels???

Maybe we need a trade thread....? I think so.

m0stly_harmless
02-28-2011, 11:11 AM
I know. I know. I was several corridors away when I heard the "I'm in pain grunts" and realized "That's not my character! That's an NPC!" So I hoofed it over just in time to hear the dying wail and see "Bowyer" or whatever over her head. Waaaah!

*puts head down for a minute of silence* And those Bowers are just as hard to come by than the bloody bows they sell...

What? Nothing really. I'm just nice that way. :)

LOL. That's what I say at work too... just before we take someone down and cuff them, and drag their asses to solitary. =D

However, if you don't want that cursed bow, I could take it and give it a whirl. If it beats what I'm using, you can have the one I've got now. It's a real winner -- doesn't look like much but it has low stat requirements, decent DPS, but 120% crit & magic crit, armor piercing, extra health, extra mana, etc. Can you pull off the 48STR/96DEX required? Probably not at level 13, but if you make it to around level 20 you might.

My brother kept the bow (he did pick it up), so I can't get my grubby little hands on it. If I remember the conversation correctly, I think I was threatened with certain painful death if I didn't give it back to him (borrowed it for the screenshot). Something about him wanting to keep it, despite it being cursed....

For whom? :) just kidding. I have no need to wish death on you.

LOL Gee, thanks. :p I can see it now, you stay stealthed, pick a baddie off and oh look, I have nowhere to hide... Nothing beats walking bait. :D

Though, now that I toy with the thought, the XP hit may be worth a few chuckles...

It would be interesting to see how the game deals with such an offset character level.

No -- it doesn't... I have to open up to multiplayer trade in the hopes that someone has found a better bow than what I have. I keep dumping tremendous points into barbed arrow & stealth which is why my bow is still viable at level 50, but really to have the same bow for 25 levels???

See, and therein lies my issue, we shouldn't have to be dumping points into skills to offset the rather erectily dysfunctional stats of the game's bows - and the horrible drop/quality amounts.

Maybe we need a trade thread....? I think so.

Good idea, but I've had prior bad experiences with this kind of thing... Too many greedy theifs out there to make that worthwhile.

Once in a while though... a good soul may come through...

Crisses
02-28-2011, 11:29 AM
Good idea, but I've had prior bad experiences with this kind of thing... Too many greedy theifs out there to make that worthwhile.

Once in a while though... a good soul may come through...

You must be thinking of one of several certain other very large games with a high asshole-to-nice-guy population ratio.

I can't stand trading in D2/Battlenet. People are real jerks.

I'm not sure I'll be running another archer character, certainly not anytime soon, so I have like 4-5 bows I've been holding on to for a bit. I THINK some might work for you. I also want to see if I can get another manyvendor town, around level 25 normal so you can join without problems, but it will not bore me to tears if I'm in it alone :) It's in the multiplayer game thread. I'll be in game by 9pm EST tonight, I'll save bows for you specifically, but I have jewelry and a few other things that lower level characters (lower than 50) will possibly enjoy. I also pulled all my items from another character last night so my stash is overflowing (especially with crappy bag drops!)...so heck, I'd trade for a decent bag. I know that price may be too high :) I've played maybe 20 characters and I can say with relative sureness that bags better than a satchel are hard to come by. But for some games/characters they seem almost plentiful... strange.

Purchasing tons of jewelry in the manyvendor town last night dropped my gold level from 50+GP to something like 11GP so I'm also open to trade for money....if that's possible in the game.

m0stly_harmless
02-28-2011, 11:48 AM
Purchasing tons of jewelry in the manyvendor town last night dropped my gold level from 50+GP to something like 11GP so I'm also open to trade for money....if that's possible in the game.

I made no mention of *Cough* Diablo *Cough*, but it's nice to see you understand my point. Assholes aren't limited to that game though. I've run into them all over.

It's probably why I haven't bothered to join random multiplayer games on Din. Maybe I should give it a chance. It *would* give me something to do while my brother is on vacation...

I'll be honest, I'm torn with parting with *any* good bag I have as we know they're just as hard to find as bows are... but your offer seems entertaining.

As for the gold thing, the Dev didn't build that into his game. Dunno why, we can share our goodies between characters, but not the gold they collect. An oversight maybe?

Crisses
02-28-2011, 12:37 PM
As for the gold thing, the Dev didn't build that into his game. Dunno why, we can share our goodies between characters, but not the gold they collect. An oversight maybe?

Not enough Jerry McGuire "Show me da Money!"

Yeah, if you could drop money, you could have a minor distraction for leprechauns! :)

I don't remember if I've tried trading money. I think it's on the trading screen somewhere....but it was non-intuitive. It's been a while and my son's not home to ask :)

Crisses
02-28-2011, 12:54 PM
I don't remember if I've tried trading money. I think it's on the trading screen somewhere....but it was non-intuitive. It's been a while and my son's not home to ask :)

Answered in the multiplayer thread: it is an option on the trading screen. My son & I played around with the trading screen and happened on it, but I couldn't remember how you did it.

m0stly_harmless
02-28-2011, 01:31 PM
I'm still laughing...

I've played this game ragged and up until now was unaware of a "trading" screen. :rolleyes:

Guess that's what you get for only having one partner whom you share the goodies with (and not trade).

Nomad_Soul
03-02-2011, 05:12 PM
I'm going to start a seperate thread to HOPEFULLY get some of this archer stuff addressed. I really needs to be...

The Archer:

- Multiple arrow shot. The angle that (from left to right, aiming up) that the arrows come out is not equal. The first and second arrows seem ok (looks like a 330 Degree, 0 Degree), that third one almost comes out at a 90 degree angle to the second (middle) one <- this one needs to be made to be 30 Degree to make it a "coned" spread. This makes for a very awkward way to clear a room, not to mention that it wastes a shot in 90% of the circumstances.

- The cone spread should be made a little narrower. Perhaps a 30 to 35 Degree spread from center on both sides, because as it stands, it's a pretty useless skill in any location other than a WIDE room. In those twisty, narrow dungeons, it's just a waste of points and mana.


I agree with this. Also, it would be good to see more high quality bow drops.

Does anyone know if there are any archer-oriented item "sets"? Like for example Skadd's, Mudbeard's, and Alek's sets incorporate a melee weapon into the set. Might be nice to see some archer-oriented sets with a bow thrown in there. I haven't seen any yet, personally.

Max_Powers
03-02-2011, 07:09 PM
I'm still laughing...

I've played this game ragged and up until now was unaware of a "trading" screen. :rolleyes:

Guess that's what you get for only having one partner whom you share the goodies with (and not trade).

No worries. I had played this game for a long while before I started a 'trades thread' here a while back, and in it asked Shadow if he would please add a trade screen ability. He then told me it was already there :doh!: