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bushwhacker2k
03-15-2011, 11:31 PM
I noticed a lot of classes have passive abilities that cause them to gain mana when certain events happen.

Striking an enemy, being stricken, parrying or blocking an attack, killing someone, getting a critical hit, etc.

Is there a place I could go to see how effective these are? It seems like some would have to give a nice bit to be useful (killing) whereas some would have to give a tiny amount so as to avoid being overpowered (striking someone/parrying & blocking).

I'm thinking of making a Weaponmaster/Weaponmaster if it turns out to be pretty effective.

Manumitted
03-16-2011, 01:33 AM
From what I've seen, I doubt the boost for any of those passive skills is any more than the Mana Steal obelisk / pool buff (+5/hit). It never seems to be more than a pixel or two on the MP bar. Not very useful to begin with, and it rapidly becomes a drop in the enormous MP pool. It's certainly not enough to keep up with useful levels of whatever MP-using skill that one favors.

It's meant to be a bonus, not something that makes gear, stats, and active skills meaningless.

Bluddy
03-16-2011, 02:16 AM
I actually think this is a design issue.

These mana bonuses are a holdover from DoP. You see, in DoP, classes were more sharply defined. The warrior and rogue would never get more mana (called 'rage') than they started with -- INT wouldn't boost mana. They only got mana from hitting/killing etc, and mana would decrease when they were out of combat. This is why most of the warrior and rogue abilities don't scale up their mana costs with levels -- they didn't need to for DoP.

Now that hybrid classes are possible and all classes can increase their mana pools, this throws off a lot of the old mechanics. The passive abilities that increase mana give way too little mana to be noticeable anymore. Even warriors have huge mana pools that they don't really need for their skills. Mage spells don't keep up with the huge mana pools they have.

I'm working on adjusting the mana costs for skills, but it's a shame that the passive abilities can no longer contribute to the game. For them to be relevant in DC, they need to give percentages of max mana rather than specific mana points per hit/crit/kill etc. I really think this is a change Shadow should make as it would bring back that unique mana system and make it relevant again.

bushwhacker2k
03-16-2011, 02:23 AM
I think I agree overall, since the mana costs are fairly consistently in one range, the classes that get low mana gains from stats suffer somewhat and the classes that get large mana gains pretty much never run out.

I liked DoP's system where all 4 classes had unique energy types.

Bak
03-16-2011, 11:06 AM
These mana bonuses are a holdover from DoP.

I definitely had to make mental adjustments when I started playing DC. I was very used to the DoP fighter/thief empty mana pools and needing to build them up.

My fighter has decent mana regen from armor, which has made mana regen from stats unnecessary. (I just need to remember not to dive into combat until I wait a few seconds for the mana gas tank to fill up.)

Bluddy
03-20-2011, 03:13 PM
Shadow, I think I've figured out a good way of keeping these mana regen bonuses relevant. They need to use a percentage of total mana, but not mana after boosting -- base mana.

We don't want a half-warrior half-mage to use his warrior skills to fill up his 'mage mana'. We want his warrior bonus to count for his 'rage' part. Therefore, the boost to mana regen from e.g. hitting should be a percentage based on the value of mana per INT and SPR in the classes file rather than the total amount from the skills file.

EDIT: actually that's not good enough. The warrior will get 3 times the mana he's supposed to. My other idea was to tie the amount of the bonus to investment in a particular tree. The more skill points you put in a tree, the more the bonus rises.

bushwhacker2k
03-20-2011, 04:29 PM
I just realized except maybe for purposes of critical hit, perception or resistances, intelligence and spirit aren't very useful overall.

I get 0.02 mana regeneration(per second, presumably) from one point in either, thus taking 50 points to get ONE MANA PER SECOND. That is ridiculous.

I got a pair of shoes that gives me 10 mana regen, thus I immediately have no reason to ever use spirit or int again unless it's a character that will definitely never get in melee ever.

---

Actually, DOES mana regen mean mana gained per second?

Bluddy
03-21-2011, 06:00 AM
I just realized except maybe for purposes of critical hit, perception or resistances, intelligence and spirit aren't very useful overall.

I get 0.02 mana regeneration(per second, presumably) from one point in either, thus taking 50 points to get ONE MANA PER SECOND. That is ridiculous.

I got a pair of shoes that gives me 10 mana regen, thus I immediately have no reason to ever use spirit or int again unless it's a character that will definitely never get in melee ever.



It's true. If you don't want the crits and resistances, there's no need for INT or SPR. The main reason is that mana costs don't escalate for skills. INT and SPR are supposed to give you just enough mana regen to handle the extra mana they give you. But a non-mage (and even a mage) doesn't really have a need currently for that much extra mana. This is something I'm working on in my balance mod.

Actually, DOES mana regen mean mana gained per second?

It does. But mana regen slows during combat to 1/4 of its regular value. It appears that you're supposed to rely on the passive abilities you mentioned above for recharging mana during combat if you need it. Those passive abilities won't help you much if you do have a lot of mana though, and you probably won't miss them since skills use so little mana.

Valgor
03-21-2011, 10:36 AM
The Gladiator has a skill (Blood Lust?) that helps improving a character's passive mana gaining abilities, though.

Bluddy
03-21-2011, 11:08 AM
The Gladiator has a skill (Blood Lust?) that helps improving a character's passive mana gaining abilities, though.

That's right! I totally missed that. I wonder if it works only on power gain and not regen -- I wouldn't want it working on mana regen.

If we look at DoP (the source of this ability) it was supposed to help you build up mana faster than normal. But in reality, because the passive mana abilities don't keep up with your mana store, this skill isn't really worthwhile. I wonder if I can use this command to make the passive skills improve a little with every skill you buy. The problem would be that I'd want only the skill of the particular tree to improve -- otherwise the warrior would soon get tons of mana.

Valgor
03-21-2011, 11:59 AM
Don't worry, to my knowledge, it really only works on power gain.

Maybe Shadow could replace the negligible mana regen bonus on Spirit with a power gain bonus... something like +0.65% power gain per point?

Bluddy
03-21-2011, 12:15 PM
Only some classes have power gain, so unfortunately I don't think that's a solution.

We have to consider several cases:

- A full warrior gains from a) hitting from weaponmaster b) getting hit from gladiator c) blocking/parrying from defender. In this case, we wouldn't want him to gain too much mana. Each skill should give mana in proportion to how much the warrior invested in that skill tree, so if he only bought defender skills, only the defender's blocking/parrying mana generation will grow stronger.

- A half assassin / half mage will gain from crits and kills, but he'll also have a mana regen bonus and a mana potion bonus. We don't want his crits and kills to fill up all his mana -- much of that mana 'belongs' to his mage side. The more he invests in his assassin skills, the more mana from crits and kills he should get. If he only buys mage spells, crits and kills would remain weak -- his mana would be mostly mage mana.

I'm curious about Devastating Blow. It's supposed to give extra damage based on rage, again a holdover from DoP. Does it refer to mana? If so, that aspect of its damage should not increase, as mana increases easily throughout the game and currently remains mostly unused.

Maledictus
03-21-2011, 12:40 PM
a non-mage (and even a mage) doesn't really have a need currently for that much extra mana.
Does this factor in the fact that (if I'm not mistaken) there are skills that empty the entire mana pool in exchange for one huge damage explosion?

edit: you're too fast for me, you just said it:
I'm curious about Devastating Blow. It's supposed to give extra damage based on rage, again a holdover from DoP. Does it refer to mana? If so, that aspect of its damage should not increase, as mana increases easily throughout the game and currently remains mostly unused.

I believe one of the mage classes has one too, lightning store I think it's called.

Bluddy
03-21-2011, 12:51 PM
Does this factor in the fact that (if I'm not mistaken) there are skills that empty the entire mana pool in exchange for one huge damage explosion?

I believe one of the mage classes has one too, lightning store I think it's called.

Lightning store just gives you a boost of mana. Again, not very useful right now that spells barely consume any of the huge mana pool you have as a mage, but once spell mana costs are adjusted, it'll be very useful.

I'm not sure if devastating blow actually consumes the mana it uses for its damage calculation. Never tried it.

bushwhacker2k
03-21-2011, 08:19 PM
Don't worry, to my knowledge, it really only works on power gain.

Maybe Shadow could replace the negligible mana regen bonus on Spirit with a power gain bonus... something like +0.65% power gain per point?

Forgive my negligence, but does power gain refer to the specialized passive abilities certain classes have to gain mana in unique ways?

Bluddy
03-22-2011, 12:43 AM
Forgive my negligence, but does power gain refer to the specialized passive abilities certain classes have to gain mana in unique ways?

I believe so. The terms aren't consistently used in the game files, but that's what we mean here.

Valgor
03-22-2011, 01:57 PM
Would be nice if the tooltips for the various power gain skills would tell us the actual numbers, i.e. how much mana is gained when killing an enemy/getting hit/blocking a blow...