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View Full Version : Open Letter to Shadow: TORNADO IS OP


Srulz
03-20-2011, 01:47 AM
Disclaimer: I'm not talking about Tornado skill that the Sorcerer has, I'm talking about the random hazard which is accompanied by this message:

A tornado has touched down in town.

I've lost 2 freaking towns in a row now, and I just can't do ANYTHING about it. What can you actually even do against Tornadoes, when they land in the middle of your town and slain all your important NPC's in a heartbeat?? Case in point:

http://www.soldak.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=827&stc=1&d=1300595767

The reason I'm so pissed about this thing is, -everything- in the game, no matter how insane, how random, how illogical, is -manageable-. Deal-able. But these Tornado is pretty much game-breaking. Towns lost without being able to do a single thing. Oh yeah, you can feed the NPCs to "outlast" the Tornado, but it's not enough (I've tried for the 1st town with my lone Steward, he's still dead).

I'm sorry, but I've got no good suggestions for you on how to deal with this problem. Rather than removing Tornado altogether, but I doubt you want that. Maybe giving Tornado a Fear effect that caused nearby NPCs to run away.

Arjun123
03-20-2011, 02:59 AM
Having the tornado impart a fear effect is an excellent idea. Frankly, it's rather absurd how NPCs just stand there and get torn to shreds when a tornado descends upon them.

bushwhacker2k
03-20-2011, 03:04 AM
Having the tornado impart a fear effect is an excellent idea. Frankly, it's rather absurd how NPCs just stand there and get torn to shreds when a tornado descends upon them.

I kinda feel that way when giant 4-armed demons spawn from a hellish portal to lay waste to the peasants armed with sticks and sheep-skin clothes.

I haven't had too much trouble with tornadoes but I had a fun little time when I didn't have my teleport stone active, the portal was blocked and demons were slaughtering my citizens AT THE SAME TIME that a tornado was running wild.

-_- I think perhaps rather than saying "you can't save every town" we could say "most towns are pretty much screwed from the get go if you set the speed too high".

Arjun123
03-20-2011, 03:28 AM
It seems that the villagers tend to be both brave and foolish, and fight the demons rather than flee from them. An interesting twist on the game would be to have the town modifiers (rowdy, heroic, etc.) affect the villagers' reaction to the demons, causing them to fight or flee. Perhaps their could be a "cowardly" (or, maybe "rational") modifier causing them to flee rather than stay and fight. These modifiers might very well effect how one would need to react to the invasions.

bushwhacker2k
03-20-2011, 12:56 PM
I feel like there should be some way to make them rally in the town center or something... I'm not trying to bash the game but when you are armed with a stick and no armor and then proceed to try to take out a 20-foot demon, I consider that to be bad AI.

It isn't a huge deal, but it's silly.

Max_Powers
03-20-2011, 01:30 PM
Maybe giving Tornado a Fear effect that caused nearby NPCs to run away.

I have suggested this in the past , and agree that it is a good idea. When I suggested it there were also an insane amount of tornadoes spawning as well, so once that was fixed it didn't even seem like an issue anymore.

The only way an NPC should get killed by a tornado is if the tornado spawns right on top of them, they get caught somehow so that they can't get out of it's way, they are slowed too much or frozen in place some how, they are made oblivious some how to the tornadoes approach, and/or the tornado is moving so quickly that they can't get out of it's way.(Did I miss any?)

Bluddy
03-20-2011, 03:08 PM
Never liked those tornadoes. Fear doesn't really solve the issue, because NPCs will just flee them and then the tornado becomes an extraneous element. How about all the NPCs go to their shelter when the tornado arrives aka the first dungeon level?

Arjun123
03-20-2011, 06:36 PM
That's an interesting idea, Bluddy. The first level of the dungeon is, of course, a natural tornado shelter. Perhaps a challenge when faced with "tornado alley" towns would be to clear out the 1st level ASAP, before a tornado lands.

Manumitted
03-21-2011, 01:19 AM
I kinda feel that way when giant 4-armed demons spawn from a hellish portal to lay waste to the peasants armed with sticks and sheep-skin clothes.

Take a closer look. Some of those peasants are wearing soft armor types that need dozens of character levels and wielding weapons that have triple-digit attribute requirement totals. Then they do single-digit damage every time...

If you're in a town afflicted by Furies, the peasants and their equipment are almost certain to be L20+. Basic clubs and short swords are long gone by that point.

bushwhacker2k
03-21-2011, 08:13 PM
Oh, my mistake then. Well equipped for orc raids while being slaughtered by 4-armed demons then.

menscher
04-03-2011, 12:23 AM
Just in case the OP's point was lost along the way... I'll register a 100% agreement that the tornadoes are really unfair and frustrating right now. Losing a town at the drop of a hat to something you have zero control over and zero defense against is simply random and arbitrary and infuriating.

I just had one of those epic towns where I defended against dozens and dozens of tough town attacks, killed scores of bosses and super bosses, destroyed all manner of machines and uprisings and rebellions and everything else... then, after hours and hours of work with the light finally at the end of the tunnel, a tornado randomly showed up and destroyed the town in about 6 seconds by killing all three quest-givers at once, while I was in the dungeon and had no time to react.

There has to be some way to prevent or combat the tornadoes, otherwise it's a realy bad game element and should be removed imho.

DeathKnight1728
04-03-2011, 12:51 AM
Maybe you can have the option of building a device that enhances against earth magic or w/e. Everyone in the town gains resistance to it, thus making it so they hurt, but dont obliderate everything in sight.

Bak
04-03-2011, 02:48 AM
To keep the discussion going, here are some possible suggestions:
1) Make the houses in town damage-able. Some amount of damage creates rubble, then some amount more needed to remove the rubble.
2) Some of the optional townpeople quests should be for getting building materials (get X items, allow both the monster-drop and the lying about items), which would repair or create more houses in town.
3a) Building a house = happiness gain.
3b) Destroy house = happiness lost
4) Tornados do a lot less damage to people, but can damage/destroy town buildings. Probably lightning strikes too.
5) Invaders (like the barbarians) should sometimes target the houses and not the townies (unless being attacked by the cloth-wearing kamikazes).

Bluddy
04-03-2011, 04:05 AM
Maybe you can have the option of building a device that enhances against earth magic or w/e. Everyone in the town gains resistance to it, thus making it so they hurt, but dont obliderate everything in sight.

To build on this idea since the tornado is a big gameplay element rather than a 1 shot quest, we could have 2 ways to deal with tornadoes:

1. Gather ingredients for a spell that'll make the approaching/current tornado go away.
2. A multi-part quest to create a tornado-repelling machine. Once you've built this device (and this involve be 4-5 individual quests) tornadoes are greatly weakened in the town. The alternative (instead of a multi-part quest) would be that you could build several of these machines, each one reducing the effect of tornadoes.

An interesting result of this could be that monsters would seek to destroy your anti-tornado device(s). It's a pretty good way to hurt the town.

This would turn a really annoying game element into something fun.

Caal
04-03-2011, 10:49 AM
I think that tornados should come about in one of two ways - 1) if there is a weather machine present there would be a chance to spawn a tornado. Then, by trying to destroy the machine you have at least some control over if they occur or not, 2) tornado could be a specific type of trap, especially on chests. This way you can make the choice of opening a chest and potentially triggering a tornado or not.

In either case the townies should at least have some chance (maybe 75%?) of getting out of the way. This way a full range of outcomes is possible, from no deaths to several, but with utter disaster scenarios less likely.

menscher
04-03-2011, 06:21 PM
I think that tornados should come about in one of two ways - 1) if there is a weather machine present there would be a chance to spawn a tornado. Then, by trying to destroy the machine you have at least some control over if they occur or not, 2) tornado could be a specific type of trap, especially on chests. This way you can make the choice of opening a chest and potentially triggering a tornado or not.

In either case the townies should at least have some chance (maybe 75%?) of getting out of the way. This way a full range of outcomes is possible, from no deaths to several, but with utter disaster scenarios less likely.


It seems intuitive to link tornados to the weather machine. If you let a weather machine sit in the dungeon for too long, there's eventually a chance to spawn a tornado. Once the tornado comes, the only way to get rid of it is to go down and destroy the weather machine.

And if you always do your weather machine quests quickly, you'd never see a town tornado at all.

In fact, the first time I saw a town tornado I immediately ran down to destroy a weather machine that had been around for a while. I thought surely that this would get rid of the tornado, and was surprised that it didn't.

bushwhacker2k
04-03-2011, 07:38 PM
I thought surely that this would get rid of the tornado, and was surprised that it didn't.

Interesting point, do weather machines only spawn tornadoes without controlling them or do they do something totally different?

Shadow
04-04-2011, 10:35 AM
Weather machines do increase tornado changes a lot, but they don't control them really. Although that's not a bad idea.

Bluddy
04-04-2011, 12:03 PM
I agree that this is a good idea. The more the player feels the direct impact of his actions, the better. Destroying a darkness machine makes the darkness go away, and destroying the weather machine while a tornado is raging should do the same for the tornado.

bushwhacker2k
04-06-2011, 01:43 AM
I agree that this is a good idea. The more the player feels the direct impact of his actions, the better. Destroying a darkness machine makes the darkness go away, and destroying the weather machine while a tornado is raging should do the same for the tornado.

I quite agree, I can accept some lack of control, but if a huge frickin' tornado suddenly starts killing townspeople and I can do nothing about it, then I just get bothered.

I'm really glad Shadow is involved in the forums, our suggestions don't fall on deaf ears :D

Shadow
04-06-2011, 09:55 AM
Well at least for now in the next patch all tornadoes are caused by weather machines so the player has a bit more control.

Bak
04-06-2011, 04:37 PM
Well at least for now in the next patch all tornadoes are caused by weather machines

This is huge. :)

And for some reason made me think of the Weather Wizard in the Superman animated episode "Speed Demons".

bushwhacker2k
04-06-2011, 10:53 PM
Well at least for now in the next patch all tornadoes are caused by weather machines so the player has a bit more control.

Sweet, thanks, Shadow!

Haus
04-07-2011, 11:35 AM
Well at least for now in the next patch all tornadoes are caused by weather machines so the player has a bit more control.

While I support this change, that will still leaves the weather machine being the most powerful and feared thing in the game from my experience. I had one pop up a few levels lower than where I was at. Granted this was my first experience, so I wasn't rushing to it at first... until the town had been hit with 3 tornadoes in a rather short time.

At that point I was completely focused on trying to find it. It was in a brutal dungeon and all of the shop NPCs were eaten by tornadoes. With no food or water or place to sell loot, I was desperately clinging to life while searching for this thing. By the time I got to it I'd had 3 more tornadoes. The town had been all but emptied out, but miraculously both the warmaster and the steward had been untouched. I actually ended up finishing the town, but wow.

As interesting an experience as it turned out, it is no small amount of unbalance with anything else. Unlike other machines, which are a trifle at best and a nuisance at worst, a weather machine will always be the absolute top priority, no matter where it happens to be located in a dungeon.

Currently, the tornado just feels like a indomitable juggernaut of threatening instant loss so a change is positive, but it really seems to me that the weather machine will easily remain the most dreaded event one could possibly get. I just got Demon War and was not of veteran experience in the vanilla game, but I can't imagine that I'm alone on that. I've not encountered anything that I'd consider as much of a threat.

Bluddy
04-07-2011, 11:58 AM
While I support this change, that will still leaves the weather machine being the most powerful and feared thing in the game from my experience. I had one pop up a few levels lower than where I was at. Granted this was my first experience, so I wasn't rushing to it at first... until the town had been hit with 3 tornadoes in a rather short time.

At that point I was completely focused on trying to find it. It was in a brutal dungeon and all of the shop NPCs were eaten by tornadoes. With no food or water or place to sell loot, I was desperately clinging to life while searching for this thing. By the time I got to it I'd had 3 more tornadoes. The town had been all but emptied out, but miraculously both the warmaster and the steward had been untouched. I actually ended up finishing the town, but wow.

As interesting an experience as it turned out, it is no small amount of unbalance with anything else. Unlike other machines, which are a trifle at best and a nuisance at worst, a weather machine will always be the absolute top priority, no matter where it happens to be located in a dungeon.

Currently, the tornado just feels like a indomitable juggernaut of threatening instant loss so a change is positive, but it really seems to me that the weather machine will easily remain the most dreaded event one could possibly get. I just got Demon War and was not of veteran experience in the vanilla game, but I can't imagine that I'm alone on that. I've not encountered anything that I'd consider as much of a threat.

Great point Haus!

I hope that the way Shadow is implementing this change, while tornadoes will get a bigger chance of occuring with weather machines, they should by no means a sure thing once a weather machine is built. There are many ways of having bad weather -- tornadoes are just the most extreme form. You're right that weather machines will still be extremely important, but you should only have to run to destroy them if a tornado has already arrived.

I think there should still be a chance of the tornado still leaving on its own, and there should also be enough time to go destroy the machine once a tornado has made its presence known.

In terms of the urgency -- I wish the other machines actually mattered more than they do i.e. I wish each machine could cause something minor but also have a small chance of causing something very dangerous. The closest thing I can think of is the anti-magic machine which can actually become a huge nuisance for a mage character. In my experience even an earthquake machine doesn't make that much of a difference.