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derf
03-22-2011, 03:12 PM
Do weaponmaster rage (mana gain on hit) adrenaline (faster attacks) and arms mastery (+attack and damage) work with bow?

Does bow do enough damage late game to even take advantage of being ranged? I'm assuming not having any non-linear crowd control, and the nature of cramped spaces in DC, means an archer is shooting enemies point blank anyway and is essentially a gimpy warrior.

Changing exploding arrow to %based fire damage, or making multishot hit 3 enemies might fix this. To not make archer OP maybe slow the attack time of bow, that would make sense to me anyway.

Reading about the game on here it looks like there are only a few build types/playstyles that can make it against the higher level enemies. I just wanted to know a few things about using the bow late game (before I invest the time it takes to get there) and if it's more feasible than say a mage which I gather is pretty useless thanks to the mage attacks not being % based like the melee ones.

Perhaps base mage attack spells on a % of quarterstaff damage, changing it so a quarterstaff is required to cast an offensive spell, or just making attack spells do a relatively lower % of weapon damage compared to warrior attacks.

Bluddy
03-22-2011, 03:51 PM
Do weaponmaster rage (mana gain on hit) adrenaline (faster attacks) and arms mastery (+attack and damage) work with bow?

AFAIK yes.

Does bow do enough damage late game to even take advantage of being ranged? I'm assuming not having any non-linear crowd control, and the nature of cramped spaces in DC, means an archer is shooting enemies point blank anyway and is essentially a gimpy warrior.[QUOTE]

From testing with 2 characters, archers can do fine in the late game. Plus, many dungeon types aren't cramped at all. Bows are a little weaker than melee weapons because they have the advantage of being ranged. They've still got plenty of power though. Also, you could always have a strong melee weapon as a backup.

[QUOTE]Reading about the game on here it looks like there are only a few build types/playstyles that can make it against the higher level enemies. I just wanted to know a few things about using the bow late game (before I invest the time it takes to get there) and if it's more feasible than say a mage which I gather is pretty useless thanks to the mage attacks not being % based like the melee ones.

A mage is not useless, especially after the last patch. He still requires a particular strategy though: making use of masteries.

Perhaps base mage attack spells on a % of quarterstaff damage, changing it so a quarterstaff is required to cast an offensive spell, or just making attack spells do a relatively lower % of weapon damage compared to warrior attacks.

I was thinking of having magic ratings for weapons that are completely separate from regular damage ratings, and which would work similarly to what you're saying. Staves would have the highest magic rating. However, that's already practically a different game. The system is not bad as it is, it just still needs some tweaking. Mages are already very playable -- I'd just like to see them not depend on masteries as much.

Brysos
03-22-2011, 07:01 PM
and if it's more feasible than say a mage which I gather is pretty useless thanks to the mage attacks not being % based like the melee ones.



I have a mid 70s wizard and an almost 50 HC wizard. One of the most important things to find is -cast time items (gloves and staff). These items will dramatically increase your power level. Wizards can be fragile however, I have had several very close calls with my HC wizard but it is doable.

My key skills are shatter and cold mastery, for survival I have teleport and fire maelstrom. Lately I have been dumping points into Evasion. Fire Maelstrom is critical as even a single level of it works as a massive AE root, I can't take more than a few hits from a champion at my level and if they get a stun off on you it can get ugly quick. The downside of Fire Maelstrom is it often causes cave ins, so typically I will cast it and run just outside of its effect. Once you get teleport maxxed you can afford to use it more for those cave-in cases.

I haven't met any 1 shot bosses yet with my HC wizard, but my normal wizard has met a few that I am dreading meeting again. Super fast, one shot re generators are tough.

derf
03-22-2011, 07:19 PM
Took me a sec to figure out what HC wizard was, hardcore. Now that I know it's doable I will try it, thanks brysos

A mage is not useless, especially after the last patch. He still requires a particular strategy though: making use of masteries.Ok cool, could you answer a couple more questions before I change to mage? I just don't want to make a character who is only good enough for early on.

Is mana gain significant? Will I be able to spam level 10 fireball or frost nova if I hybrid with necro for mana gain on kill?

Does magic crit trigger mana gain with assassination/elation or is it just for melee/bow crits?

How important are dex and vit? Can I just ignore them and spend my points on int?

Do enemies have fire/cold resistance so high I should consider hybrid with warlock just for curse of vulnerability?

Bluddy
03-23-2011, 03:45 AM
I have a mid 70s wizard and an almost 50 HC wizard. One of the most important things to find is -cast time items (gloves and staff). These items will dramatically increase your power level. Wizards can be fragile however, I have had several very close calls with my HC wizard but it is doable.


Brysos, would you be able zip up and post your character files for your level 70 wizard? I could really really use it for testing my balance mod -- I just don't know how viable my adjusted skills are at high levels. If you'd prefer not to post it publicly, just say so and I could PM you my email address.

An HC character is not much use for me since testing leads to many character deaths :)

Bluddy
03-23-2011, 04:11 AM
Took me a sec to figure out what HC wizard was, hardcore. Now that I know it's doable I will try it, thanks brysos

Ok cool, could you answer a couple more questions before I change to mage? I just don't want to make a character who is only good enough for early on.

Is mana gain significant? Will I be able to spam level 10 fireball or frost nova if I hybrid with necro for mana gain on kill?

Mana gain is not significant for any class. It's just not a factor. Plus, all mana regen slows down to a crawl when you're in combat. But that doesn't really matter either since mana costs currently rise very slowly, so you should be able to spam spells even with a half-mage (at least according to my calculations -- other people might be able to give you better advice from experience).

Just to give you an idea: a 10th level fireball will cost you only 22 mana. As a half mage, by level 20 you'll already have 210 mana, so you'll be able to spam around 10 level 10 fireballs. By level 30 you'll have around 300 mana, so you'll be able to spam 15 of them. Plus, since fireballs will kill off most of the critters, you won't be in combat for long and your mana will therefore go back to filling up quickly. The only limiting factor is the number of skill points you have to spend early on, and you have to make sure to invest in fire mastery.

Does magic crit trigger mana gain with assassination/elation or is it just for melee/bow crits?

I think it's only for hitting crits, but as I said, it's not a real factor.

How important are dex and vit? Can I just ignore them and spend my points on int?

DEX is sadly not worthwhile for a full mage unless you want to be able to hit the monsters as well -- the fire mage has the flame blade option which is mildly powerful. VIT is essential for survival. STR is slightly useful because it can give you magic crushing blows. As a mage though, you'll probably max out your INT fairly early.

Do enemies have fire/cold resistance so high I should consider hybrid with warlock just for curse of vulnerability?

I don't think it's necessary. Some unique enemies have high resistance, and fire elementals would be difficult, but in general monsters have low resistances.

Chumpy
03-23-2011, 05:13 AM
Wait, strength affects magic crushing blows?

Bluddy
03-23-2011, 05:18 AM
Wait, strength affects magic crushing blows?

Though I haven't seen it specifically said anywhere (it's only in the code), I believe it does. Crits and magical crits stem from the same source (INT), and I think crushing blows and magical crushing blows also come from the same source (STR). BTW this is a good thing -- you want the pure mage to want to invest in stats other than INT and VIT. There are no magical deep wounds, which is why DEX is of little use to the mage. I wish there was something to be gained from DEX.

As a side point, I have no idea where stunning blows come from.

Manumitted
03-23-2011, 05:42 AM
Though I haven't seen it specifically said anywhere (it's only in the code), I believe it does. Crits and magical crits stem from the same source (INT), and I think crushing blows and magical crushing blows also come from the same source (STR). BTW this is a good thing -- you want the pure mage to want to invest in stats other than INT and VIT. There are no magical deep wounds, which is why DEX is of little use to the mage. I wish there was something to be gained from DEX.

As a side point, I have no idea where stunning blows come from.

I'm pretty sure that's a mistake. Unless I've missed something in the changelog, nothing but item enchants seems to affect Magic Crushing Blow. Why should your physical strength help you cast a max-damage magic spell, anyway? Not making Magic Crush easy is consistent with holding down spell damage to make up for its ranged, never-miss nature.

Stun chance only comes from item enchants (constant percent or proc) or a few skills/spells that boost melee Stun, auto-stun the target, or have a chance unrelated to melee Stun of stunning the target.

Bluddy
03-23-2011, 05:45 AM
I'm pretty sure that's a mistake. Unless I've missed something in the changelog, nothing but item enchants seems to affect Magic Crushing Blow. Why should your physical strength help you cast a max-damage magic spell, anyway? Not making Magic Crush easy is consistent with holding down spell damage to make up for its ranged, never-miss nature.

Stun chance only comes from item enchants (constant percent or proc) or a few skills/spells that boost melee Stun, auto-stun the target, or have a chance unrelated to melee Stun of stunning the target.

Ah ok. Well if that's the case then I stand corrected.

derf
03-23-2011, 09:25 PM
Is there a weapon/armor list somewhere that shows attribute requirements? If not how much str should I get for good late game bow and leather armor?

I made a farcher and found out that exploding arrow is basically just a very cheap fireball. Only difference is it takes .2 seconds longer to cast and requires a bow but at a permanent 8 mana I can cast it indefinitely thanks to a few +3 mana regen armors I've got.

Even so I think I'm better off going with a huntadin and maxing dex, with a few levels of bravery I'll have so much defense I probably don't get hit. I lose aoe but I can spam serrated arrow just as easy as exploding arrow and a a ton easier than fireball or frost nova. It adds 15% dmg per level instead of 10%(or 8% if ice) plus 20% crit and deep wound chance. This is then applied to whatever bow I got rather than a static 50-100 dmg. Serrated arrow also costs less skill points than mastery, especially since I dont need an initial investment in exploding arrow or whatever mage attack.

At character level 10 I already need a couple lvl 3 exploding arrow shots to kill mobs on normal difficulty. I just don't see my aoe spam working very well later on, mastery or not. Right now I'm actually getting way higher than 10% dmg gain per level of exploding arrow and it isn't cutting it. Mage might not be totally useless, but it does look pretty bad compared to archer unless there is some better way than aoe spam to deal with mobs as a mage.

If nothing else this has made me realize bow is pretty decent, which is good because I can't stand chasing everything down in melee with the stupid diablo controls. Is there any possibility of implementing keyboard movement?

Bluddy
03-24-2011, 01:10 AM
Is there a weapon/armor list somewhere that shows attribute requirements? If not how much str should I get for good late game bow and leather armor?

I made a farcher and found out that exploding arrow is basically just a very cheap fireball. Only difference is it takes .2 seconds longer to cast and requires a bow but at a permanent 8 mana I can cast it indefinitely thanks to a few +3 mana regen armors I've got.

Even so I think I'm better off going with a huntadin and maxing dex, with a few levels of bravery I'll have so much defense I probably don't get hit. I lose aoe but I can spam serrated arrow just as easy as exploding arrow and a a ton easier than fireball or frost nova. It adds 15% dmg per level instead of 10%(or 8% if ice) plus 20% crit and deep wound chance. This is then applied to whatever bow I got rather than a static 50-100 dmg. Serrated arrow also costs less skill points than mastery, especially since I dont need an initial investment in exploding arrow or whatever mage attack.

At character level 10 I already need a couple lvl 3 exploding arrow shots to kill mobs on normal difficulty. I just don't see my aoe spam working very well later on, mastery or not. Right now I'm actually getting way higher than 10% dmg gain per level of exploding arrow and it isn't cutting it. Mage might not be totally useless, but it does look pretty bad compared to archer unless there is some better way than aoe spam to deal with mobs as a mage.

If nothing else this has made me realize bow is pretty decent, which is good because I can't stand chasing everything down in melee with the stupid diablo controls. Is there any possibility of implementing keyboard movement?

Good observations. Bow skills will always be easier to use since they scale with your DPS. They'll need far less investment, whereas all mage skills need constant investment throughout the game to be useful. That's just the way the system is, especially since right now you have to buy 2 skills: the spell you want + mastery.

Also, DPS can grow very very fast while spells are limited to certain damage curves.

To enable you to get all bows, you need to make sure to invest in DEX. Right now bows have a very high DEX requirement (not sure why) and a lower STR requirement. If you're investing in DEX, you're fine.

forevernomad
03-24-2011, 01:27 PM
Also, DPS can grow very very fast while spells are limited to certain damage curves.


Couldn't we just have staff DPS as a base modifier for offensive spell power?


Also, Bluddy, quit reverse stalking me :)

Bluddy
03-24-2011, 03:46 PM
Couldn't we just have staff DPS as a base modifier for offensive spell power?

Also, Bluddy, quit reverse stalking me :)

:)

It's possible, but not with the current system. It'd take a completely different magic system from what we have. Also I'm not sure how much it makes sense that the physical damage of a weapon will also determine its magical damage. I thought of an idea of giving each weapon a magic power, with staffs being strongest, but again this is a different system from what we have.

I'm hoping it'll be possible to balance the scaling skills and the non-scaling skills so that both are worthwhile. I'll get to that soon in my balance mod. What it essentially means is that scalable skills need to be nerfed so that to get a really powerful boost, you need to invest a lot of points -- more than you would need for a non-scaling spell. Non-scaling skills need to cheaper ie. they'll allow you to reach full power for cheaper.

forevernomad
03-24-2011, 05:48 PM
I kind of imagined that staffs did magic damage rather than physical damage for some reason.

derf
03-24-2011, 07:15 PM
I'm hoping it'll be possible to balance the scaling skills and the non-scaling skills so that both are worthwhile. I'll get to that soon in my balance mod. What it essentially means is that scalable skills need to be nerfed so that to get a really powerful boost, you need to invest a lot of points -- more than you would need for a non-scaling spell. Non-scaling skills need to cheaper ie. they'll allow you to reach full power for cheaper.Can you not vary the increase in damage for skills? Are you for example forced to set it at a constant 5-10 damage per level?

By character level x you have enough points for skill level x. Make the skill at that level do damage comparable to a standard weapon, bow or sword/axe/mace depending what skill it is, of equal level requirement.

If relying on skills to do all of your damage, like a pure mage, you would be spending more skill points to have a similar damage output. You wouldn't have to rely on gear or its attribute requirements so much though, and this could balance by also doing what you say about adjusting the skill costs.

As for my build, works with hunter and whatever hybrid one chooses, I am using paladin for extra 50% def from lvl 10 bravery.

Level 20 serrated arrow would cost 210 skill points, that leaves me 114 to spend on lvl 10 net trap and lvl 10 bravery or whatever else I need to survive.

lvl 20 SA= 4x crit and DW chance, and 3x dmg
for 100% DW I'd need 230 dex
for 100% Crit I'd need 200 int

I can have a bow attack that gives triple damage, and crits and deep wounds every time. I wonder if the crit and deep wound apply before or after the 3x damage?

So I still have 114 skill points and 66 attribute points to work with. If endgame bows will require more than 51 str I wont max out my dex or maybe lower my crit chance to compensate. This is assuming none of my gear gives extra attribute points, which it undoubtedly will.

I'm not exactly sure how defense works out at 250 base dex, which is 1250 with this build, but I can probably run around armorless with my bow and a 10 levels of bravery, 50% attack/defense, and be fine.

Bluddy
03-25-2011, 03:56 AM
My balance mod already gives quite a bit more per mage skill level. Most spells are AOE though so you don't want to give them as much damage.

The problem with matching spells to DPS is that DPS ranges widely. Warriors and half-warriors get insane boosts to DPS from their strength. It's very hard to match that or predict it (though I do collect samples).
Also with casting gloves, DPS rises for mages too -- especially on the non-AOE spells.

Just looking at serrated arrow (which you already looked at), that skill is ridiculously cheap. Taking it to level 20 will consume only 18% of your skill points -- less than a 5th. But it'll allow you to kill just about anything but bosses, what with 3x damage and then a high chance of crit so it's around 6x damage, not to mention extra damage from deep wounds (don't know how much that is). Actually the deep wounds part will be most effective since you have to have relatively high DEX as an archer.

So you don't need to invest in any other offensive skill. And it has no cooldown timer and uses almost no mana.

Antigrav
03-25-2011, 06:43 AM
My hunter/reaver (only level 14 now) uses serrated arrow, but it does have a big drawback {old archery pun}: it's treated as a "cast" and so you're rooted for a couple of seconds while you fire it. I generally only use it on the first attack, because with bow attacks, I need to run around, or kite, to keep the ranged advantage. With that tactic, which isn't at all as tedious as needing to eat and drink potions every couple of minutes, I remain untouched and can effectively take out a roomful of things in less time than a melee character can respawn and run back for his soulstone.

Bluddy
03-25-2011, 07:42 AM
My hunter/reaver (only level 14 now) uses serrated arrow, but it does have a big drawback {old archery pun}: it's treated as a "cast" and so you're rooted for a couple of seconds while you fire it. I generally only use it on the first attack, because with bow attacks, I need to run around, or kite, to keep the ranged advantage. With that tactic, which isn't at all as tedious as needing to eat and drink potions every couple of minutes, I remain untouched and can effectively take out a roomful of things in less time than a melee character can respawn and run back for his soulstone.

I'll keep that in mind when balancing. Just to give perspective, though, ALL offensive mage spells require standing ie. mages can't kite at all.

Shadow
03-28-2011, 02:21 PM
Strength does not effect magic crushing blows.