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Shadow
10-31-2015, 01:41 PM
Over the next several patches I plan on updating the skills a little (or maybe a lot). So I would like to get everyone's current opinion on some things.

1) What are your favorite skills that you would like to stay as is?
2) What skills do you like, but feel are too weak?
3) What skills do you not like at all and feel could/should be replaced?
4) What new skills would you like to see?

Oblivion
11-01-2015, 03:13 AM
Since I've been playing the rogue quite extensively, I think I'll add a bunch of input in for that class.

1)Right now I can't really pick a favorite skill, as all of the rogue's damaging abilities seems so similar just with different critical rates, which have kind of blurred at my current level (55.)

2)Insidious Poison, the damage it deals is so very low(At rank 5 its 2.8 dps for 10 seconds which is 28 damage) and it only applies on hits with skills so using a faster weapon and use left click attacks aren't even a viable strategy.

Viper Venom, same as above really, its damage isn't too great.

Charged Strike, it's very useful early on, but the damage scaling is pretty awful and nothing else about the abilities scales besides the duration, making it a one point wonder.

Shuriken, seems slightly promising, it just lacks quite a bit especially with how you can no longer move while throwing it (like in Din's Curse.) The damage scaling isn't too great either. I think this ability should have a cooldown and do a bit more damage and maybe slow the target.

Gouge, with the introduction of Cripple, it seems pointless to really invest into this skill. The flat values really fall off hard when you consider defense and attack values of 2000. The minor distraction is nice setup for other skills, but it needs some else going for it.

Dodge, the amount of defense and dodge you get per rank (25) is just way too low for the point investment. It does virtually nothing at my current level.

Feint, its effects replace Gouge and vice versa. Other than that, its pretty nice except the fact critical hit values get so high and its pretty much just a Major Distraction.

Jab, this skill just seems a bit too weak. Its concept is nice but I feel with how much damage you do later you can't counteract the hate you generate.

Caltrops, feels like its lacking something. It would be nice on a ranged character, but on the rogue you really have to be in the fight and the movement reduction doesn't help much unless you have to run.

Disarm Trap and Lock Pick, these abilities have such a weird scaling that if you do not put in tons of levels, they become useless at higher levels. They need a less flat scale in order to remain relevant.

Concentration: The cooldown on all of these are waaay too long. Concentration: Speed doesn't appear to increase use time of abilities (unless I just don't notice it), so it ends up being fairly useless in comparison to how useful it is to increase your defense a large amount using Concentration: Blur. Concentration: Poison should speak for itself, as noted about the other poison abilities.


3)Sleight of Hand is it really, none of the other skills really pop up as useless, they are just different ways of playing the rogue.


4) Dual Wielding in the Assassin tree would be neat. Maybe some sort of way to have skills do extra damage due to dual-wielding (to simulate hitting with both weapons), and attacking with basic attacks alternate between each. Would be expensive talent point wise, starting at 10.

Sword Mastery in the Assassin tree to rival that of Dagger Mastery, probably more focused around deep wounds.

Maybe a parry passive to mirror the dodge passive? it seems very roguey to me and would be another defensive skill to throw in.

Some sort of acrobatic leap ability for the Thief tree that would let you tumble short distances. Would give you increased dodge for the duration of the tumble and maybe it would give increased escape notice.

If I think of anything else I'll add it in. Overall the Rogue feels like it is in an okayish state. I think one of the main issues is that it lacks AoE compared to the other melee classes, and perhaps that's something else that should be looked at. Death Blow and Charged Strike being the only sources, but they don't do all that much damage to really matter. It wouldn't feel right giving them a really good skill, but maybe something a little more.

In addition to that, as I stated earlier, the lack of variety of abilities that do damage is another thing. At lower level they are very different but they eventually just blur together way too much.

DanSota
11-01-2015, 03:07 PM
Skills like Fireball only gain power with a base number rather than a multiplier, giving them a shelf life. If you don't keep constantly putting into them, they become useless.

I feel skills like Insidious Poison and Accuracy should work on all attacks and not just skills, otherwise they aren't that useful unless the player is a skill spammer.

That said, both of these things could easily be modded in, so if you don't decide to do those changes or if others would prefer different changes then that's perfectly fine with me.

Castruccio
11-01-2015, 03:15 PM
I agree that magic needs a rework to be viable.

Bluddy's balance mod for Dins curse did a lot of good work with skills and made a lot of them more interesting to use and more powerful. Maybe Shadow could take a look at the guts of that mod.

Also, to make this thread more organized, maybe a couple of people would be willing to test and focus on specific classes. I.e. play a specific class up to level 30 or 40 and give sustained feedback on it.

Oblivion
11-01-2015, 03:29 PM
Oh another thing of note. I would really like the synergies thing from Diablo 2 and Torchlight to be maybe included somehow. It gave purpose in leveling other skills because they would effect others in various different ways.

Like levels in Lethal Blow for instance could increase critical damage of Death Blow as an example.

Tuidjy
11-01-2015, 04:05 PM
Buddy's balance mod gave a very challenging game a casual mode. This may have been A VERY GOOD thing, but still, it completely removed the need of looking for synergies and being careful. I tried it, and then gave it up right after level 50 for being too easy. But then again, I never made it long after level 75 in Din's Curse. I always play hardcore.

I have no problem whatsoever in Zombasite dealing damage, at least up to level 50ish, which is far I have gotten. My defenses becomes inadequate much earlier, though, despite my splitting my points into defense and offense at a two to one ratio.

I have no real suggestions for improvement, though, except to suggest difficulty modes, which change the skill and stat points per level.

Shadow
11-01-2015, 05:49 PM
Skills like Fireball only gain power with a base number rather than a multiplier, giving them a shelf life. If you don't keep constantly putting into them, they become useless.

Doesn't the new damage bonuses on items help with this?

Throwback
11-01-2015, 07:09 PM
2)Insidious Poison, the damage it deals is so very low(At rank 5 its 2.8 dps for 10 seconds which is 28 damage) and it only applies on hits with skills so using a faster weapon and use left click attacks aren't even a viable strategy.

Viper Venom, same as above really, its damage isn't too great.


I don't know anything about rogue or how these skills scale, but as a general rule it is better to have 2 stacking skills than just one skill, because it is considerably cheaper to invest in them for the same or similar reward.

edit: 28 damage at rank 5 seems horribly low even for what iirc is a free mana passive. However, it has to be balanced against the saving in intelligence stat points which can then be put into dex and what flow-on that has to other skills. A very interesting skill to balance!

norari1977
11-01-2015, 08:43 PM
i like the defender's new skill Quake Strike. it won't be highest damage skill but i'm glad Defender finally got a skill he can do AOE damage.i don't have much complain about current skills on every classes. it is looks similar with Din's curse but it is exactly improved. it has a lot of possibility to create interesting character. the difference between Zombasite and previous Soldak games will be now we could have more member in the party and it made a lot of reason to make a support type character. so it must be good to add little more group buffing type skills on some class.it is little annoying i have to cast one buff to one member then i have to recast for another member or myself. i think it is useful if shaman's elemental protection skill can automatically buffing every party member at the same time.

DanSota
11-01-2015, 09:21 PM
Doesn't the new damage bonuses on items help with this?

I haven't had the chance to find out, so it might. I'll look into it when I have the time to again.


Also, to make this thread more organized, maybe a couple of people would be willing to test and focus on specific classes. I.e. play a specific class up to level 30 or 40 and give sustained feedback on it.

I can give the Ranger a go. I usually only play hybrids, so pulling through the game with a default class could be interesting.

Castruccio
11-01-2015, 11:43 PM
Doesn't the new damage bonuses on items help with this?

How does the damage bonus on items affect skills? Does skill damage (say, for Wizard spells) benefit from item damage bonuses?

Tuidjy
11-02-2015, 12:21 AM
There are staves with bonuses to both magic spells and magic damage, both of which should theoretically increase the damage of, lets say, Arcane Swarm.

I have had such items on a mage. Her arcane swarm was devastating. So was the hammer of some random Mercenary who stunned her, and killed her on the next hit. She was the single character I have lost to an identifiable cause of death.

Throwback
11-02-2015, 03:14 AM
I haven't played as much as some others but I'll give my perspective.

Meteor Swarm on paper seems too strong - aoe and single target in the same skill.

The skills that have 3 'types' (eg the skill in the beserker tree, the skill in the shaman tree) take up too much space in the skill bar. Make each variant of the skill switch to the next when you activate it - eg fire resist switches to lightining which switches to cold.

The stalker polymorph in the ranger tree is incredibly boring with no skill use (other then barkskin/strength buffs when stalker is off cd). If you could switch out to use other skills it could be fun - I can imagine a stalker/traps build. If you do build a viable stalker it is going to be 40% (from memory) faster than all other characters....that's insane.

I have more but out of time right now.

Throwback
11-02-2015, 06:08 AM
2)Insidious Poison, the damage it deals is so very low(At rank 5 its 2.8 dps for 10 seconds which is 28 damage) and it only applies on hits with skills so using a faster weapon and use left click attacks aren't even a viable strategy.

Viper Venom, same as above really, its damage isn't too great.


I did some rough math and if Insiduous starts at 0.1 DPS and incrementally increases DPS by 0.1 more each level (0.2 DPS at level 2, 0.4 DPS at level 3, 0.7 DPS at level 4 etc), by level 20 it will be doing a (not so) whopping 19.1 DPS....

On that note, it would be great if the skills and their formula for increase was available publicly.

DanSota
11-02-2015, 06:30 AM
I did some rough math and if Insiduous starts at 0.1 DPS and incrementally increases DPS by 0.1 more each level (0.2 DPS at level 2, 0.4 DPS at level 3, 0.7 DPS at level 4 etc), by level 20 it will be doing a (not so) whopping 19.1 DPS....

On that note, it would be great if the skills and their formula for increase was available publicly.

It sort of is publicly available, you just have to go through the assets files and find the skills file. It'll open with any standard text editor like Notepad.

FluorescentBlack
11-02-2015, 09:15 AM
Hello Soldak people. First post here. I am not even level 20 and about the same in Dins as I am new to both, In Drox I have had a few ships in the 60 to high 80 range before I accidentally did not back up my save games at a point. I had some nice builds though.

Skills like Fireball only gain power with a base number rather than a multiplier, giving them a shelf life. If you don't keep constantly putting into them, they become useless.


Items can give raw % bonuses to make them better and elemental bonuses seem to be more common that physical type ones.

norari1977
11-03-2015, 11:45 AM
it is very difficult to discuss about ' balancing'. sometimes it is also a fun part that we discover the crazy over powered build and some player may prefer the challenge with ' weakest and weird ' class combination too. it is good to adjust the balance almost equal if this game is Multi player focused game though. i personally hope the future skill adjustment plan aren't too much focus on nerf.

DanSota
11-03-2015, 01:59 PM
it is very difficult to discuss about ' balancing'. sometimes it is also a fun part that we discover the crazy over powered build and some player may prefer the challenge with ' weakest and weird ' class combination too. it is good to adjust the balance almost equal if this game is Multi player focused game though. i personally hope the future skill adjustment plan aren't too much focus on nerf.

If anything, the changes will make some skills better, some toned back, and the rest untouched. I think the only idea in mind is balancing how the default classes utilize these skills, so there should still be good hybrids and bad hybrids.

Shadow
11-03-2015, 02:12 PM
In general I don't have a problem with nerfing skills that are way overpowered, but that's really not what I'm looking for right now. I'm looking to make more skills/builds viable.

Throwback
11-03-2015, 05:24 PM
I'm having huge problems getting a riposte build to work.

In theory at some point riposte will be very powerful, but I can't get there - DoT maps ruin me.

Shield bash is necessary for this build otherwise I can't touch frost nova or equivalent boss mobs (I can't out-DPS them).

I'm forced to take zombie resist gear because I'm melee, meaning my other resists are low.

Acid destroys me. Sometimes I can't dodge it for example if it's behind a pillar and I can't see it, or there is a fire thrower nearby next to acid.

Quake Strike drops rocks on me in dungeons and reduces my mobility. It knocks mobs an incredibly long way away which I'm sure will be great at level 30+ when I have used multistrike to put gut on everything, but is pure torture at 11 when I have to chase mobs down and excite even more fire throwers/acid towers/liches - not to mention the awful, awful damage. This skill is ok in theory but melee characters don't have trouble with melee mobs - it's ranged mobs that are the issue. If this was a 'vacuum strike' that sucked enemies *towards* you it would be way better.

Fire throwers are ridiculous. If I'm too far away, I'm going to get hit and take masses of damage from my low fire resist. I'm fine with fire throwers in isolation, but as soon as there is more than one, ouch. I can't even run to the 2nd one because then I will run out of stamina...

Throwback
11-03-2015, 05:43 PM
Melee takes too much durability damage. I'm pretty sure I never repaired once on my conjurer build, but on my defender build at level 22, I was collecting greys to try and skew my recycling towards armour scraps and at some points I actually ran out. As soon as you add acid pools into the mix, it gets worse.

I'm in favour of removing repair cost altogether, but keeping the cool upgrade/enchant system. I'd also like acid to only do damage while you stand in it.

Oh and Block doesn't trigger Riposte, which doesn't make sense to me from a gameplay perspective (it would be nice to have a guaranteed Riposte trigger) or from a logic perspective (the skill is called Block and increases your Block chance).

norari1977
11-04-2015, 09:48 AM
i'd like to see crafting related skill on some class. for example weaponmaster could have a possibility that they have a better chance to craft a additional proc on the weapon if they are investing a point into blacksmith skill. and spell caster class also have similar skill that they have a chance to add another magic effect on crafting weapon and armor.

Tuidjy
11-04-2015, 12:21 PM
I have not had any characters over level 40, but I have never had to repair anything, except to improve it, at least after the first few levels. Yes, on melee characters.

Of course, I dump ungodly amounts of grindstones and scrap on improving my gear each level, but apart from those good items, I have not wasted one single scrap on anything, in quite a while. Of course, by playing hardcore, I am a lot more averse to taking any damage than those who have more than one life.

In my experience, melee characters have only one problem - eventually, they get cornered in a spot they cannot leave, and that spot somehow ends up with INSANE continuous damage, which eats through their hit points in a second or two.

But monsters? Bosses may roll some tricky abilities - all other monsters fall in two categories: easy pickings, and environment modifying, death dealing ones, like the bomb throwers, fire breathers, poison spawners, etc.

Throwback
11-04-2015, 06:32 PM
I have not had any characters over level 40, but I have never had to repair anything, except to improve it, at least after the first few levels. Yes, on melee characters.

Of course, I dump ungodly amounts of grindstones and scrap on improving my gear each level, but apart from those good items, I have not wasted one single scrap on anything, in quite a while. Of course, by playing hardcore, I am a lot more averse to taking any damage than those who have more than one life.


That's insane! How are you doing it? Do you build for as high damage as possible so everything dies in one hit?

I don't feel I've gotten to a high enough level to be improving my gear.

Tuidjy
11-04-2015, 07:04 PM
I try to get multiple multipliers on my damage.

For example, weapon damage, for a plain old warrior can be increased by:
- increasing strength
- improving a sword with a high damage bonus (80+) and an ego bonus (25%)
- raising sword mastery, arms mastery
- using a highly improved whirlwind
- adding extra damage with the gladiator skill, whatever it is called
- using an acid/fire flask, whenever the situation demands it
- keeping buffing clan members aside for anyone else, and visiting them before bosses

For defense, you have:
- increasing dexterity
- parry from sword master
- parry and block from the defender skills
- possibly a shield

So normal monsters in the 1-24 and 25-50 range seem to present no problem. Unfortunately, environmental damage can't be killed, or defended against, and resistances are a sad joke. So all of my non-teleporting characters eventually end up roasting or chocking on a spot they can't leave.

Throwback
11-04-2015, 10:34 PM
- improving a sword with a high damage bonus (80+) and an ego bonus (25%)


This might solve a lot of my issues. Thanks for the tip!

And I agree, I've had massive trouble getting resists.

DanSota
11-05-2015, 06:21 PM
Edit: Added in Druid tree, overall class "review", and changed first paragraph



Here it is, my overall "review" of the Ranger class, first broken down tree by tree and skill by skill. This is just my opinion on things, and I encourage others to comment on how they disagree. After all, maybe you know something I don't and can give valuable insight. I hope this will be of some use, if not for changing skills, at least for people looking for "review" of the Ranger class.




Archer tree



Flaming Arrow

This skill is pretty much the first go-to combat spell. It doesn't cost a lot, its damage seems well balanced, and its not high on mana cost. I'd say this skill should stay untouched as its not overpowered unless you pour tons of points into it and invest in both Spirit and Intelligence.



Poison Arrow

At first glance I thought this skill would be useless. I mean its a weak shot and does eh damage per second for 8 seconds. That was until I realized how strong it gets each additional level. For not many points, you have have a shot that does a lot of damage and inflicts really high poison DPS. It almost seems too good, however on higher difficulty settings closer to the player's level, it balances out well.



Shock Bolt

Not much to say on this one, its basically a higher cost Flaming Arrow that can stun people. It looks like it might be better than Flaming Arrow at first, but the increased cost means you could have two Flaming Arrows for the same cost as one Shock Bolt. I'd say that's enough to keep them balanced granted that the stun rate is like 1 out of 5.



Eagle Eye

I'm not very fond of this one. Its a passive so it doesn't hurt to throw down a few points into it, but the low attack and crit hit bonus just doesn't justify putting more than several levels into it. Perhaps an idea would be that after every few points put into it, it then starts to increase by a higher value to coincide with the increasing enemy levels and skill costs. That or change it to a percent modifier instead of a raw value, and increase the crit hit bonus a little.



Multishot

I'd say this one is just as good as the other arrow skills. Its got decent damage, shoots three projectiles, and costs more than the others. Not much else to say on it.



Bow Mastery

Ahh, Bow Mastery. This is pretty much the go-to passive. Decent cost, decent damage boost that actually helps more in higher levels than lower ones. Can't think of any changes that should be made, other than maybe investing into it grants a really small static attack speed boost that doesn't get bigger with more levels. That way leveling it higher doesn't break attack speeds but getting at least one level helps. However that's not a needed feature, it'd just be an interesting one.



Dodge

Ugh, Dodge... I hate this one. I mean just like Eagle Eye it doesn't hurt to grab a few levels in it, but unless you pour tons into it then its not useful at all in later levels. The only thing that makes it not as bad as Eagle Eye is that it at least grants you two bonuses rather than just one and a barely noticeable crit hit bonus. I tend to avoid it if possible.



Projectile Mastery

This one isn't bad and it goes well with the Bow Mastery I feel. It helps to have stronger projectiles and faster ones for when you really need them, but exactly how useful it is, is hard for me to really pin down. Seems fine though.



Exploding Arrow

I wasn't able to see much use in this one. The explosion radius feels too small and because it uses flat numbers it isn't worth investing in long term.



Marked for Death

I completely avoid this one. Its just a static debuff and I'd rather use the points in other skills instead of risk taking damage just to set up a small debuff. Its ok to snag in low levels for boss help, but ditch it quickly. High cost, distracts you from staying focused on DPS, and does a borderline useless static debuff. The only way I can see this working is if it was one of your main skills and that you mainly ran a support Archer tree.



Hunter tree



Serrated Arrow

What's not to love about this one? Decent damage, a good crit hit bonus, and deep wounds all rolled into one low cost skill. Definitely the go-to attack skill.



Light Touch

I simply love this skill. Its useful to escape enemies or move around unnoticed so you can get ready for combat in advance. Its low cost makes it worth it, but after a certain threshold its best to save the points for other skills.



Immolation Trap

I was skeptical at first given that its a static damage skill, however it seems to actually work out well. Its my first time using traps and they definitely seem like they are useful, though I can imagine like all traps that they stop being as useful in really high levels.



Freezing Trap

If the static damage thing is a problem, this one gets around it by being useful for slowing enemies down and making them attack slower. Definitely worth snagging at least one.



Net Trap

Wow. That's really all that needs to be said about this amazing trap. Its great for any ranged builds because it stops enemies in their tracks. It also has decent cooldown time so you can set it up again by the time it wears off. Might actually need a real slight increase in cooldown so it can't be as easily abused, but its definitely an amazing skill.



Trap Mastery

I'm not so sure about this one. The trap disarm is definitely useless at later levels, as is the perception it seems. That said though, the increase to trap damage is amazing as well as the mana cost reduction. I'd say it definitely balances out the fact that the traps have static values, especially at its low cost.



Cooking

Now I love the idea behind this skill, but it doesn't seem like it actually works good. Increasing it never seems to actually increase my chances for finding food. Probably needs a serious increase.



Infused Energy

This skill is very interesting and allows the Hunter to focus less on points in Intelligence and Spirit and use more on Vitality. Its a go-to if you're running a more magic based ranged built.



Split Projectiles

I love this passive. It gives you extra projectiles and there doesn't seem to be any real negative aspects to it.



Lure

Not a bad skill, its easy to keep it high enough to be effective if its one you want to use and it seems to work good. I think its reuse time and how long its effective for could use some work though, because as it stands its not quite good enough to justify the cost but close enough you can make it work.



Druid tree



Weakness

Now this is how I think debuffs should be done. Its cheap, effective, and doesn't seem to get worse at higher levels.



Earth Link

Its an alright passive. Gives a fair amount of health for lower levels but in the long run the point cost wouldn't justify the health gain. The poison resistance looks good, and the added zombie resistance is great.



Nature's Revenge

Not really my cup of tea, but it seems fair when it comes to its cheap cost. Probably not very good at higher levels.



Earth Mastery

A pretty good mastery, like all the others seem to be. Its damage increase and mana reduction definitely balances out with Nature's Revenge and will surely keep it relevant in later levels.



Barkskin

Whereas many skills that give static boosts tend to have some slight issues, this one's already decent value that goes +40 armor each level makes it hold up throughout the levels. I'd say it works out pretty good.



Mana Regen

Here's another skill with static values that works out well I feel. The mana regen it grants combined with its base cost makes it a good investment for several levels, and even if you don't put it past that much it stays useful.



Strength of Stone

Wow. This is the second skill so far I've come across that made me say this. A +10 Strength boost every level with a cooldown that matches its duration? That makes this skill amazing even if you only invest a single point in it.



Persistence

The Druid tree seems to have a lot of pretty amazing features. This is another one of them. It can be costly to make a lot of use out of it, but it seems worth it to me given that it boosts how long status effects last. It makes the already amazing Strength of Stone even better.



Stalker

The Stalker skill... Aside from letting you live out the fantasy of playing as a Stalker, it gives some decent boosts. Its worth snagging just one for the increased movement speed and attack speed. Throw in the bonuses to crit hit, deep wounds, attack speed, and defense and you get a great skill should you choose to utilize it. The only drawback is that you can't use skills with it, so apply buffs before use.



Earthquake

Not bad damage for its AoE range and cost. Thanks to Earth Mastery it'll stay relevant in later levels. It could probably really be abused due to its low mana cost, decent damage, acceptable skill cost, and use time. It would probably be best to slow down to 1 second or 1.25 seconds instead of the 0.75 its at. Other than that, great AoE skill.



Ranger Overall


Overall the Ranger class is stable and has many ways to play it. Outside of a select few skills, nothing really needs worked on. Even the skills that fall short usually have a passive in the same tree to help fix that, or can use a passive from another tree to help as is the case with Exploding Arrow (Archer) and Split Projectiles (Hunter).

The ones that fall short are as follows:

Eagle Eye (Archer)
Dodge (Archer)
Marked for Death (Archer)
Cooking (Hunter)

ScrObot
11-05-2015, 07:09 PM
Alright, I finally put together my opinions on the Archer skill tree.

I agree that Flaming Arrow is the go-to skill. I use that along with Split Projectiles in the Hunter tree and lots of Extra Projectile enchanted gear makes it more awesome.

I disagree about Exploding Arrow's usefulness though -- it's pretty good for AoE, especially with Extra Projectiles and/or +Fire Damage and/or +Explosion Radius. I do agree that it's flat numbers aren't ideal, but I find it useful for bunched up enemies.

DanSota
11-05-2015, 07:20 PM
I agree that Flaming Arrow is the go-to skill. I use that along with Split Projectiles in the Hunter tree and lots of Extra Projectile enchanted gear makes it more awesome.

I disagree about Exploding Arrow's usefulness though -- it's pretty good for AoE, especially with Extra Projectiles and/or +Fire Damage and/or +Explosion Radius. I do agree that it's flat numbers aren't ideal, but I find it useful for bunched up enemies.

You might be right, because I'm doing them one tree at a time. When I get to my overall class review I'll mention things like that. I'm also going through and looking at them one at a time, so at first I might think something isn't useful but a later skill may fix that in the grand scheme of things.

Nesmo
11-06-2015, 12:47 AM
Got to level 100 in my hybrid Sorcerer / Magician character (non-hardcore).

My Modus Operandi for this character was build up lightning blast, and kill everything at range. Had a decent challenge, until I got relevant equipment multipliers, which may have been added by a patch while I was working through the game. When I hit level 75, I set my next area to level 100. I only had to switch out my magic find gear for mana-regen/spell-damage/cast-time-reduction bonuses to be able to take down entire clans in a raiding party of one.

Sorcerer


Lightning Blast
Instant hit, high damage for a top row spell. Out of Wizard and Conjurer classes, this seems to be the best low level spam cast that scales to high levels.
Chain Lightning
Didn't use, has longer cast time and less damage. Seems more effective to just cast lightning blast multiple times
Lightning Mastery
Second skill point dump for damage. Very nice. Would the +%Critical Hit need to be +%Magic Critical Hit for it to work with Lightning Blast?
Thunderbolt
Tried it out instead of Lightning Blast once, the 10% stun is a nice idea, but only useful if you're lucky and until you get your damage up enough so nothing survives the first hit. Might be better as passive giving stun to lightning skills, or giving Magic Critical Hits stun.
Residual Energy
Nice for indicating stealthed enemies with sound and visual effects and an extra damage source to boot.
Gaseous Form
Duration starts at 5 seconds, and gives 50 of most resistances per level plus 1 second duration plus stamina recharge. I completely passed this over, but can see the appeal. Adding movement buff and physical resistance might be good.
Stored Lightning
Tried it out, couldn't tell if it was ready to used or not half the time. Particularly not during a fight. Could be better as a straight up "restores mana by calling a lightning bolt down on yourself, and generates mana when enemies hit you with lightning damage spells"
Ball Lightning
When an enemy NPC uses this, I am relieved of any worry that damage will occur.
Tornado
Never worth upgrading, but is the go-to skill when the proverbial fan is hit or summoner spam. Really not sure what part the 1.1 second duration listed is for.
Lightning Swarm
Didn't try using.


I'd replace Ball Lightning with a Lightning Tower summon, and change Stored Lightning to be less fiddly.

Magician


Blinding Flash
Tried it, but effect is scaled to level so I reclaimed the points
Arcane Blast
Low damage projectile does non-elemental damage.
Elemental Harmony
At max level, elemental harmony is "+50 Percent". I'm guessing this means 50% of my non-basic attack elemental damage is divided among all the elements. Does this happen before, say, a +% lightning damage increase happens with Lightning Blast, or after?
Magic Shield
I was hoping this would take effect before Mana Shield, but that is not the case, relegating its utility to before mana shield is available.
Evasion
Deep Thought
Perfect and Essential
Teleport
The upgrades to reduce cooldown is perfect.
Arcane Drain
Didn't use.
Arcane Focus
For its short duration, it should probably cost fewer skill points initially.
Arcane Swarm
I am tempted to make another char built around this.


Change Magic Shield to take damage before Mana Shield. Or any skill that produces a barrier against contact could protect against zombie infection, perhaps?

Balance:
I think +%SpellDamage and -%CastTime modifiers may need to be reined in. Perhaps -%CastTime could result in a corresponding multiplier for mana usage. +%SpellDamage modifiers may need to be halved and have minor mana usage increase. Another method of balancing could be reducing which slot-types can get those modifiers.

Although having opposing clans have their members group together to attack invaders would probably help as well

It would help if when a skill is on the hotbar for damage range and cast time that results from passives and equipment modifiers to be shown instead of the skill's base stats.

DanSota
11-07-2015, 04:29 AM
Upon further reflection of the Hunter skill Split Projectiles, I'm starting to think its too powerful in that a max level character (1169 skill points) can get it to level 40, which is 400% extra projectiles. With enough mana, you can lock even the toughest bosses into place with Shock Bolt, leaving them helpless if there aren't other monsters around to interrupt.

Throwback
11-11-2015, 07:53 AM
I'm on about my 5th pass of trying to play a defender riposte build, currently level 11. In the past I have crashed & burnt at about level 22.

With a grain of salt given my character level, I think there are couple of obvious issues with some of the important skills for this build:

Shield bash: This skill is designed to let low-DPS warriors (ie sword & board) fight Spellcasting bosses - and it works great for that purpose. Unfortunately you have to keep points in it to prevent it becoming worthless, heavily gimping your DPS when you were already a long way behind due to the 1-hander. Furthermore, the 10s cd means it is no good for taking out multiple big sisters/fire throwers/dark elf zombies etc - something that 2-hander builds struggle with less with due to high spammable single-hit damage (and DPS overall). I would add that I personally wouldn't like it to be a DPS skill - that's what the sword is for after all.

sword & board needs a clear goal - is it going to be the same DPS as 2-hander builds by virtue of spending less on defence skills due to higher natural defence, or is it going to be something else? At the moment it is trying to be utility/tank with some situational advantages over 2-handing, but falls down because it cannot tank elemental damage dealers and cannot out-utility them either. I believe it is the worst build to play against non-physical damage due to a combination of very low damage and total lack of mitigation.

I would be very interested in hearing from anyone who has managed to get sword & board riposte focused warrior off the ground.

Tuidjy
11-11-2015, 12:47 PM
All of my warriors use two-handed weapons 90% of the time, and switch to shield and sword when they need to, i.e. when they need extra defense. I invest very few skill points in shield related skills - just enough to disrupt the enemy or get the low hanging bonuses. Damage comes from my sword.

But I do not see why you keep talking about DPS. Warriors do not have the skills that only increase DPS for two-handers, and depending on what swords you find, your one-handers may be a good match for the two-handers. I use a two-hander for its reach, not for its damage.

As for enemies who deal non-physical damage, they've always been the armored warrior's curse. There are a few things to do about it:
- kill the enemy before he has a chance to unleash his attack
- dodge the non-instant projectiles, like arrows, bolts and ball lightning
- move out of the way, once truly scary elemental damage settles and becomes environmental
- find clan members who have protection spells, and use them when needed

A warrior does not have to choose between two-handed and sword&board. A demon hunter does, but he has the skills to stack serious resistances.

Throwback
11-11-2015, 07:56 PM
All of my warriors use two-handed weapons 90% of the time, and switch to shield and sword when they need to, i.e. when they need extra defense. I invest very few skill points in shield related skills - just enough to disrupt the enemy or get the low hanging bonuses. Damage comes from my sword.

But I do not see why you keep talking about DPS. Warriors do not have the skills that only increase DPS for two-handers, and depending on what swords you find, your one-handers may be a good match for the two-handers. I use a two-hander for its reach, not for its damage.

As for enemies who deal non-physical damage, they've always been the armored warrior's curse. There are a few things to do about it:
- kill the enemy before he has a chance to unleash his attack
- dodge the non-instant projectiles, like arrows, bolts and ball lightning
- move out of the way, once truly scary elemental damage settles and becomes environmental
- find clan members who have protection spells, and use them when needed

A warrior does not have to choose between two-handed and sword&board. A demon hunter does, but he has the skills to stack serious resistances.

You're right, and it's true I could build for 2-handed and only switch into 1-handed for shield bash. However this is a thread that is at least partially about making more builds viable.

Currently I don't feel a build that focuses on putting points into sword & shield skills (for e.g. the defence passive which iirc only works with shields and imho would be fairly pointless without a shield anyway) with a goal of eventually making strong use of riposte is viable. The gut + ground strike build might be, I haven't really tested it.

Whether Shadow wants to make it stronger is up to him, but personally I love sword & shield builds.

Tuidjy
11-11-2015, 10:14 PM
I guess I was not clear. A two-handed user, a magic user, any character who wants to be viable has to spend resources and points in all items and combat skills - the weapon damage skills, the weapon itself, and the main damage dealing skill.

Why do you expect that the shield user will be any different?

If you want to keep shield bash viable, you will have to keep investing in it, the same way a whirler invests in Whirlwind. If you want to have multiple viable skills... well, it is a luxury that few builds have, unless one of the skills feeds off another - for example, you can keep a reaver/weaponmaster flame strike at the entry level, but that's because two-handed mastery, sword mastery, arm mastery and the weapon damage itself feed into it.

Shield bash is a damage skill which has a status effect attached to it. You can pump the damage without investing in it, because it feeds off weapon damage. But if you want the effect, you need to put some points. Now, it may be that the skill is too expensive in the long run. A good argument would be: (note that I have NOT tried this, and the numbers below are random)

In order for my Shield Bash to be relevant against level 40 enemies, I would have to have it at level 10, which would require 55% of my total skill points. This is obviously too much, so please increase the effectiveness.

Now if that number is really 55% you have one Hell of a point. But if it is 5%, you do not. So, do the testing, and let us know how much of your skill points pool you'd need to expend to make shield bash relevant. Then the developers would be more likely to listen.

-----

I actually took a second look at the relevant skills. You are complaining that you cannot keep viable the STUN effect of two ACTIVE skills which BOTH feed off physically damage. No build which duplicates functionality in such a manner needs to be particularly effective, as far as I am concerned. But you have made me interested enough to try a shield user next time one of my characters bites the dust.

Throwback
11-13-2015, 04:58 AM
I guess I was not clear. A two-handed user, a magic user, any character who wants to be viable has to spend resources and points in all items and combat skills - the weapon damage skills, the weapon itself, and the main damage dealing skill.

Why do you expect that the shield user will be any different?

If you want to keep shield bash viable, you will have to keep investing in it, the same way a whirler invests in Whirlwind. If you want to have multiple viable skills... well, it is a luxury that few builds have, unless one of the skills feeds off another - for example, you can keep a reaver/weaponmaster flame strike at the entry level, but that's because two-handed mastery, sword mastery, arm mastery and the weapon damage itself feed into it.

Shield bash is a damage skill which has a status effect attached to it. You can pump the damage without investing in it, because it feeds off weapon damage. But if you want the effect, you need to put some points. Now, it may be that the skill is too expensive in the long run. A good argument would be: (note that I have NOT tried this, and the numbers below are random)

In order for my Shield Bash to be relevant against level 40 enemies, I would have to have it at level 10, which would require 55% of my total skill points. This is obviously too much, so please increase the effectiveness.

Now if that number is really 55% you have one Hell of a point. But if it is 5%, you do not. So, do the testing, and let us know how much of your skill points pool you'd need to expend to make shield bash relevant. Then the developers would be more likely to listen.

-----

I actually took a second look at the relevant skills. You are complaining that you cannot keep viable the STUN effect of two ACTIVE skills which BOTH feed off physically damage. No build which duplicates functionality in such a manner needs to be particularly effective, as far as I am concerned. But you have made me interested enough to try a shield user next time one of my characters bites the dust.

Sorry it took me a while to reply - been busy.

I *am* investing into shield bash to keep it viable, and I still only get a 10s cd damage skill. I want to go into riposte, so 2 damage skills seems enough to me. I have tried builds with a proper damage skill such as powerful blow or gut - but then I have no points for defence (to get riposte up & running) and I just feel I should be using a 2-hander.

Some skills should be better as a shield user, just like damage skills are better with a 2-hander (higher base damage and it reduces the attack speed time). Shield bash is obviously better but is god-awful against multiple spellcasters, which are a nightmare for low DPS builds - and riposte is not going to do anything against them, that's for sure.

To summarise, riposte is useless against spellcasters, and so is everything else defender related, except shield bash - which has a 10s cd.

Some other random, possibly unrelated points:
- to make use of riposte, it helps to have decent auto-attacks. The sword passive is even more great because it adds block/parry, which is direct synergy. To make use of good auto-attack, gut doesn't synergise and multistrike cripples you (which would otherwise be a cool way of buffing shield bash).
- that said I am going to try out gut to get me to riposte if this build fails. Gut is clearly a skill that goes well with 1-handers. I am very worried about it because shadow took away the 'DPS increase increases per level' part of the skill.
- as previously detailed, ground strike is awful for this build.
- there are 4 'classes' of mobs I worry about - physical melee normal, magic ranged normal, magic ranged bosses, physical melee bosses. Riposte/shield slam build is fine for all of these except magic ranged normal. I'm searching for a solution.
- I have tried various builds but my current sword passive + adrenaline + shield bash + (eventually) riposte is the best so far - I have been able to ignore intelligence, giving me an early boost.
- I'm glad you're going to play some sword & board! I hope you can come up with a good build.

Throwback
11-13-2015, 05:21 PM
After rereading tuidjy's post and looking closely at the riposte skill, I feel like I've just had an 'aha' moment. All the defender's skills can work well with Multistrike, which is potentially really amazing.

I'd like to retract all my thoughts on defender balance until I have done more experimentation.

jimoc
11-17-2015, 12:56 PM
Please change the Stalker timeout back to 30 seconds or reduce the timeout with more levels spent on Stalker.

I love the Stalker/Thief hybrid in Din's Curse and got a bit of a shock when I tried to use the same hybrid in Zombasite and discovered the 2 minute cooldown.

Throwback
11-24-2015, 07:39 AM
Multi-strike does not help sword & shield builds at all.

I finally saved enough points to buy it on my gut-focused warrior, excited at the prospect of being able to apply gut to multiple enemies at once. That's the point of Multi-strike, right - cripple your physical damage in exchange for applying secondary effects to multiple enemies? Sadly, no - the point is only to cripple your damage.

I imagine the thought behind this skill is something like invest in a single active skill for 1 point, then max out multi-strike + a weapon passive. This may in fact be do-able with a 2-handed weapon, I haven't tested it.

I suggest the skill also applies secondary effects to all targets in range. I don't know if it would result in insane overpowered stunlock builds relying on Block and Riposte, but I imagine the very slow DPS those builds put out mitigates this (and it is still very weak to ranged magic damage).

Finally, gut seems awful to me. DoT is fine and it suits a sword & board warrior who can sit in the middle and get some mana back while gut does the killing, but the damage increase of a flat 2 DPS per level feels way off, especially given the incredible synergies of % based builds in higher levels. I had felt it would be ok if multi-strike applied gut to all enemies in range, but even then you are looking at a rough 8DPS increase per level in a good situation. I realise the player can still attack after using gut, so there are some tradeoffs that have to be made with damage - and to be honest I'm not sure how to fix it. I thought the Din's Curse levelling where the DPS difference between levels increased gradually was a good start.

Shadow
11-24-2015, 09:21 AM
I finally saved enough points to buy it on my gut-focused warrior, excited at the prospect of being able to apply gut to multiple enemies at once. That's the point of Multi-strike, right - cripple your physical damage in exchange for applying secondary effects to multiple enemies? Sadly, no - the point is only to cripple your damage.

Multi-strike doesn't decrease the damage of the main attack at all. It just doesn't apply the full amount to the other enemies (at least at skill level 1).

Throwback
11-24-2015, 09:35 AM
Multi-strike doesn't decrease the damage of the main attack at all. It just doesn't apply the full amount to the other enemies (at least at skill level 1).

Well that is nicer - perhaps you could adjust the tooltip to make that clear? where it says '-xx% Physical damage', add 'to secondary targets' or similar.

norari1977
12-02-2015, 04:03 AM
i'm not testing high level character of Death Knight yet but it is really interesting class. it is looks like it's possible to have many good combination with other melee, caster classes. i think it is good idea that Death Knight three buff ( blade of darkness, unholy armor , void shield). i always prefer the buff which doesn't have time limit. this game has some overwhelming moment that we surrounded by so many mobs and offers from other clans so permanent buff can be help the lazy player like me. i think it will be more interesting if Dark Templer's Hell Storm skill was Poison damage skill.

by the way i don't know if it is only me. is that possible the poison gas explosion sound volume lower? that sound makes my ear so pain when it exploded a lot at the same time :(

ERYFKRAD
12-07-2015, 10:31 PM
I've not checked all the skill trees yet, but are there any skills that allow for quicker positioning, like jumping towards/on a foe etc.? Those would be quite handy for a very offensive build.

DanSota
12-07-2015, 10:53 PM
I've not checked all the skill trees yet, but are there any skills that allow for quicker positioning, like jumping towards/on a foe etc.? Those would be quite handy for a very offensive build.

Closest thing I can think of is the Magician tree skill called Teleport, which lets to teleport to where your mouse cursor is. With a minute reuse time though, you couldn't use it a lot. However, the Reaver tree skill Charge buffs your movement speed so you can move quicker to reach enemies, and lasts 3 minutes with a 45 second reuse. So its ready to use again long before it wears off.

Edit: Sorry, really misread.. Apparently its 3 second duration not 3 minute. So Charge is basically useless.

ERYFKRAD
12-07-2015, 10:58 PM
Closest thing I can think of is the Magician tree skill called Teleport, which lets to teleport to where your mouse cursor is. With a minute reuse time though, you couldn't use it a lot. However, the Reaver tree skill Charge buffs your movement speed so you can move quicker to reach enemies, and lasts 3 minutes with a 45 second reuse. So its ready to use again long before it wears off.

Yeah I noticed those. Maybe a jumping/charge-attack sort of skill could be considered, like some crazy Berserker style bloke who thrives on adrenaline and all that.

DanSota
12-07-2015, 11:01 PM
Yeah I noticed those. Maybe a jumping/charge-attack sort of skill could be considered, like some crazy Berserker style bloke who thrives on adrenaline and all that.

I can see a lunge skill definitely being useful, but something would have to get replaced by it. That or an existing skill made to have that added into what it does.

Vifarc
01-04-2016, 11:42 AM
I've been playing the rogue quite extensively,

4) Dual Wielding in the Assassin tree would be neat. Maybe some sort of way to have skills do extra damage due to dual-wielding (to simulate hitting with both weapons), and attacking with basic attacks alternate between each. Would be expensive talent point wise, starting at 10.

Maybe a parry passive to mirror the dodge passive? it seems very roguey to me and would be another defensive skill to throw in.
So, dualwield is at last in a soldak game engine?
This should be available in some warrior and ranger classes too.
There should be an option to play it rather defensively (parry and counterattacks instead of all-attack)

This will surely sell me the game...