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Shadow
04-30-2019, 06:57 PM
I'm going try posting upcoming changes again.


hooked up 17 female cloth skins
decreased max stack of dropping health/mana potions by 1
shields now have a strength requirement instead of a level requirement
decreased cast time magic modifier reductions by 20%
now attribute requirements on items have an inflation value of 0.02 - basically a steeper requirement curve at higher levels
now monster armor, defense, attack, health, damage, and resistance has an inflation component to increase the difficulty at higher levels
now Holy Symbol, Frost Nova, Earthquake, and Shock Wave skills have a reuse time of 2 seconds
town vendors now have less magic chance (wandering vendors are better)

rainbow
04-30-2019, 07:03 PM
Would you please have town folk that are below health use the health stone in town? After a town is attacked, some of the town folk lose health.

Also, how do I change the player skin?

And, thank you for the ghost spell. Would you please have the ghost sling a spell or three?

Thank you.

Destro*
04-30-2019, 07:56 PM
Dang yo, gutted earthquake, haha. But, 2 second cast time on the other abilities is REALLY NEAT! It may be viable to cycle them up now. Interesting! Can't wait to fight the stronger monsters! The game should be much more challenging based off these notes already.

I wonder if you would consider making it so that new characters can't access area difficulties (like legendary at level 1) that they normally wouldn't access to at level 1? This would make it so that hardcore characters can literally never abuse going to higher difficulties to buy items, while non-hardcore could still mule items with shared stash? I think it would be a nice balance change and would really add a lot of integrity (yeap, me and my ego) to future hardcore clears, assuming that you aren't going to add a level requirement to mail/plate/shield/weapon items.

Bluddy
04-30-2019, 09:33 PM
Almost all of these changes look great.

now monster armor, defense, attack, health, damage, and resistance has an inflation component to increase the difficulty at higher levels

I'm not sure this is necessary -- you already have the difficulty multipliers every new difficulty level.

Also, I think having resistances be monster-specific rather than uniformly going up is more interesting. Taking off X percent of all your fire attacks isn't so interesting, but having Nagas still vulnerable to fire while say, shielded Elves have some small resistance, is more interesting: the more I have to vary my attacks to match an enemy, the more I have to think.

Destro*
04-30-2019, 10:30 PM
I made a quick video response to you Bluddy based on your response. The balance tweaks are definitely needed. Here is my proof: https://youtu.be/AB2iz74Y64A

Bluddy
04-30-2019, 11:20 PM
What allows you to move so fast? It's nuts!

There's obviously a whole bunch of stuff in this game from mutations I'm just not familiar with.

As a first measure, it would be nice to limit player power somewhat. Second, the linear multiplier for highest difficulty levels can be increased -- I don't think there's a reason to use an exponential factor.

Bluddy
04-30-2019, 11:34 PM
But honestly the problem here is more one of locomotion than hp. You're just too fast for anything to touch you. Hp-wise, I'm glad to see it's not a glass cannon situation.

Destro*
05-01-2019, 03:23 AM
@Bluddy,

I'm so fast because of the level 31 sprint of course, haha! The mutation rollover bug gives me 20 free levels in Sprint. And, I can theoretically level it to 100 if I just keep playing nonstop. But, since I have a legacy character with level 7 teleport, that has no cooldowns, I'm not really too worried about this one. (and, it's a singleplayer game where can just edit a few config files to become op op).

Anyway, I still disagree with you, because I'm like 99% sure that melee will still be bonkers next version, even if spells are nerfed across the board to a reasonable level (which they may or may not be). This is because melee is stupid overpowered in terms of battle power mid to late game, and the clear speed is still not bad either. You can reach millions of damage with melee, with actual permanent leech from Berserker, while using Savage Strike for free teleports to enemies. Honestly, melee damage makes my 69k crits on Earthquake look like childs play. Even if I move super slow, I'd still have no threat since I can just insta-kill everything in sight.

Really, player power is off the charts overall.

But, I'm glad the see the initiative by Shadow... and I wish him luck, hahahaha.

Bluddy
05-01-2019, 09:22 AM
@Bluddy,

I'm so fast because of the level 31 sprint of course, haha! The mutation rollover bug gives me 20 free levels in Sprint. And, I can theoretically level it to 100 if I just keep playing nonstop. But, since I have a legacy character with level 7 teleport, that has no cooldowns, I'm not really too worried about this one. (and, it's a singleplayer game where can just edit a few config files to become op op).

Anyway, I still disagree with you, because I'm like 99% sure that melee will still be bonkers next version, even if spells are nerfed across the board to a reasonable level (which they may or may not be). This is because melee is stupid overpowered in terms of battle power mid to late game, and the clear speed is still not bad either. You can reach millions of damage with melee, with actual permanent leech from Berserker, while using Savage Strike for free teleports to enemies. Honestly, melee damage makes my 69k crits on Earthquake look like childs play. Even if I move super slow, I'd still have no threat since I can just insta-kill everything in sight.

Really, player power is off the charts overall.

But, I'm glad the see the initiative by Shadow... and I wish him luck, hahahaha.

OK so teleport definitely needs a cooldown :) The problem with teleport is, what do you give the player when he invests more in the skill? In teleport's case, that's a reduced cooldown. After only 6 invesments, you have no cooldown. But 6 investments is nothing when you have 1000 points and can basically add it to *any build*. Oh man, we're really getting all skills competing with all other skills here. I think teleport needs to require a lot more investment relative to player skill points.

Really, the system is out of control: you can have 2 skill points in a skill, or 30+, and somehow they're supposed to both be playable. And then we have the magic skills that require a constant investment of levels to keep competitive... and that's where the problem lies. One kind of skill gets impossibly strong after 30 levels, and the other one you're *expected* to invest 20-30 levels in to stay competitive.

I'm guessing Shadow doesn't want to reduce the number of total skill points given. In that case, you could make it so that percentage and time-based skills go up by >1 point per level. Teleport, as an extreme example, could go up by 10 skill points each level or more, making reaching its final stage really difficult. It should probably also require a *lot* more mana per level. Linear skills like spells, which need to constantly be invested in, on the other hand, could go up at 1/level or even less, 1 every couple of levels.

Another thing I think I remember is that the +% damage and +% crit from STR goes up way too fast. You end up saturating at 100% crit fairly easily. The same applies to the thief's boosts (deep wounds). I remember reducing those significantly in the mod.

Destro*
05-01-2019, 03:19 PM
Just a small note: Teleport currently has a cooldown at max rank of 10 seconds. The character I mentioned is a legacy character from before the fix for when mutations could increase skills beyond max level.

Bluddy
05-01-2019, 03:21 PM
Just a small note: Teleport currently has a cooldown at max rank of 10 seconds. The character I mentioned is a legacy character from before the fix for when mutations could increase skills beyond max level.

Thanks for the correction. Either way, it should be a major investment of skill points to get it to that level.

Destro*
05-01-2019, 05:11 PM
I disagree, even at max level 10 seconds is incredibly long... the spell only saves you a few seconds here and there and is only moderately powerful at levels 1-50 (whenever you get it... and it's 60 seconds until you invest into it). Then, it is not very powerful in the 50+ level range imho, though my opinion may be skewed because my character power is always above average in the early-mid game due to using level 100 items. Making it require more investment would kill the spell off...

Shadow
05-01-2019, 05:56 PM
The mutation rollover bug gives me 20 free levels in Sprint.

Can you explain this part?

Shadow
05-01-2019, 07:28 PM
increased item armor values by 20%
now higher difficulty levels can naturally spawn higher rarity monsters (Destro*)
decreased StatMultStrength of Kodiak Strength from 0.2 to 0.15
sprint now has a max skill level of 10
now if you have an equipped armor item that you don't meet the requirements for get an armor overload penalty (slower movement/decreased defense)
now if you have an equipped weapon and/or shield that you don't meet the requirements for get a weapon overload penalty (slower weapon and cast speed)

Bluddy
05-01-2019, 11:02 PM
I also recommend reducing the critical hit, deep wounds and crushing blow by half. Currently, it's way too easy to get to very high percentages, which blow up player power. Also these things are supposed to be special, and having them happen all the time makes them cheap.

I therefore recommend halving the values in classes.gdb (CrushingBlowPerStr etc) as well as the item magic modifiers (DynamicStatMultCrushingBlowBase,
DynamicStatMultCrushingBlowPerLevel etc).

Destro*
05-02-2019, 04:44 PM
Can you explain this part?

I made a short video explaining it and 2 other bugs. Please disregard the bad clips, I cut out like 5 minutes of 'nothing' from the video to make it shorter... and I'm not a pro video editor.

Basically, the bug is more complex than I expected. It's not a simple rollover, but a decrease caused by some events. My video catches one, mutating. As for the others, if they even eixst, I don't know. I'll keep an eye out. The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NPkX4hog08&feature=youtu.be

Shadow
05-02-2019, 05:23 PM
Ah, ok. I understand what you mean now. That part is on purpose though. When you mutate with a specialty or character, it will recalculate your mutation level which is basically number of skills - number of starting skills + free mutation skill levels.

For example, when going up to mutation level 1 let's say you got a free skill level on whirlwind, then you got rid of that free level because you don't want to use whirlwind, and then you mutated with a different specialty, you would go back to mutation level 0.

treborx555
05-02-2019, 05:40 PM
I agree that spell/physical spell balancing really needs some work.

The easiest would be to just make them all scale the same, either by wep dmg or by flat numbers. Or both.

Otherwise it's too tough to balance. Same with heals.

A char with a lvl 1 phys dmg spell that scales with wep can easily fight higher level mobs no problem as long as their weapon is good. A lvl 1 firebolt cant do anything to a lvl.. 15 mob even.

Spellcasters basically feel starved for points while melees can put 1 point in the spell and then everything else into buffs.

Also pretty please an option to disable lengthy item tooltips for spells.

Destro*
05-02-2019, 06:51 PM
@Shadow

Ahh! I see now, I see! I had to think this over quite a bit and now I get it.

Well, that makes sense for why I have so many mutation points then, since you are effectively rolling your level back to regain them a second time.

And, it will be interesting to see how effective and time consuming min-maxing a single skill by trying to get all mutation points onto it will be.

I was kind of already doing this... but I guess I didn't really understand the mechanics of why what I was doing was working the way it was. Thanks for the clarification!

Shadow
05-02-2019, 07:08 PM
hooked up 1 female cloth skin
decreased CrushingBlowPerStr, DeepWoundsPerDex, MagicCrushingBlowPerDex, and CriticalPerInt by 50%
decreased crushing blow, deep wounds, and critical hit magic modifier values by 50%
fixed Strength calculation on status effects
now skills like Demonic Control that lose their effectiveness as monster level surpasses the strength level of the skill, there is now a minimum effectiveness of 20% (Mandark)
difficulty damage mult now applies to projectile, radius projectile, direct damage, and status effects
now a sound bank can randomly pick a base sound based on level seed
now a sound bank can randomly pick which sounds to use based on level seed
added a bunch of cave and dungeon sounds
fixed vbulletin character export having extra color commands that don't get parsed correctly

Bluddy
05-03-2019, 01:14 PM
Scouring my notes for ideas for improvements:

* The major one: One of the biggest 'exploits' is weapon speed. It can only spawn on a weapon, but a weapon can have several of these stack, and players will always select for the most they can get (which is what they're expected to do). The way it works actually seems wrong and I think should be fixed. The way I'd expect it to work, is that if I have a 90% speed modifier, my weapon should have 1.9 DPS ie. it should work 90% faster. Instead, it cuts down weapon time by 90%, leaving it at 10%, which means it's a 10x DPS boost!!!!! And you can get several of these stacked together!!! In my mod, the only way I was able to constrain this somewhat was by halving percent per level and reducing levels to max out at 50 instead of 100. You can do this, or you can fix the formula in the code and make it more reasonable (highly recommended :) ) .

* 2nd most important: Item modifiers for armorMult, damageMaxMult, damageMult and attackAndDamageMult build up over levels. This doesn't entirely make sense though. A level 100 item can have a +300% damage modifier (possibly more than 1!), on top of any damage boost and other things it may have! These modifiers should probably top out at +100-120% or so (perhaps even less, to account for stacking?), and there's no real reason to tie them to levels so closely: a level 20 item could still benefit from a +80% modifier just as well as a level 90 item could. In my mod, I halved the base and perlevel, and maxed them out at level 50, which means any time after 50 you can get these modifiers.

Others:
* Some of the older proc item modifiers are set at 7.5%, which, when you get hit many times (as happens), means you're firing these things all the time. Reducing them to 3% should do the trick.
* Monster enhancement Fleet of Foot is too strong: you can't shake those guys. Should be reduced some.
* Monster enchancement Power Burn is too strong: consumes all your mana in a couple of hits. Reduced level 1 to be 0.02, 2 to be 0.04, 3 to be 0.08.
* Monster enhancement Regeneration has been reduced in DL (it was too strong in DC, and regenerating bosses are really annoying). But making it percentage based makes it irrelevant on non-bosses. I changed all 3 levels to have a perLevel component and use HealthChange rather than HealthChangePercent.
* Monster enhancement ExtraStrength is useless for enemies that do elemental damage. Changed to DamageMultAll.
* Monster enhancement EnhancementShrunk could increase defense.
* Torva Shamans need their own version of EnhancementFireAura that has AuraFriends 1. Otherwise they're buffing the monsters trying to kill them.
* The scavenger could slow down and lose some defense as it grows (it's harder for it to dodge, and it shouldn't chase you as fast).
* StatusEffectCold/Fire/LightningEnchantment, StatusEffectAuraDarkElf/Orc, StatusEffectAuraAltar: Change from OnlyOne to OnePerInflicter, to make the randomness more interesting: if you get an area full of totems, the effects stack up etc.

Status Effects:
* Status effect bark skin could lower your fire resistance.
* Change gaseous form to turn off when you use a skill: RemoveOnEvent UseSkill and take away CantUseSkills. Also increase defense.
* StatusEffectGiant: reduce defense (you're big and hard for you to dodge). Increase your crushing blow. Decrease others' crushing blow of you.
* StoneSkin from obelisk should increase your resistances too.

EDIT: Some more:
* StatusEffectBerserk shouldn't keep subtracting % defense per level. It's enough to lose 20% of your defense.
* In general, for active skills/status effects that modify crit/bleed/crush %, I prefer to use Change rather than Mult. This is because we know the full range of the stat (up to 100%), and I want the skill to be worth it at lower player levels, where the player is going to have only a few percentage points of say, crush, and boosting that by 20% doesn't do much. On the other hand, getting +10% crush + 2% per skill level will make a big difference. In the mod I changed almost all occurences of MultCrush etc to ChangeCrush etc, with reasonable values.
* On the other hand, for stats like armor, defense, attack, where you don't know what the values are going to be at the particular player level, it's more reasonable to use Mult rather than provide a skill that's useless for the player because it adds too few armor points etc.

Destro*
05-03-2019, 02:17 PM
Weapon speed doesn't apply to skills, so it's kind of useless imho. I mean, sure it's overpowered if you're just auto-attacking everything, but that is so horribly inefficient that I have no idea why you would do that over using a skill. It's not even that good with the on-proc skills, because again, you're better off just using the on-proc skills (since you'll be invested into them). (If you know a build that is overpowered with auto-attacking though, then I would definitely take this back! But, I definitely don't think anything beats Berserk/Savage Strike + Multi-Strike.)

For the 2nd most important, I don't think that the mod values matter too much as long as the equivalent level monster difficult is balanced around them. You should feel a strong desire to upgrade your gear, which currently doesn't exist in the current state of the game (though, next patch looks promising!)

As for the rest, I really like some of them and really dislike some of them (like barkskin giving -fire res is really neat and flavorful). I won't tear apart your post tho haha. :D

Bluddy
05-03-2019, 02:35 PM
Weapon speed doesn't apply to skills, so it's kind of useless imho.

Oh good point -- I forgot about that! That's what I get for digging up old notes. I guess it's a competitor for skills then, which is interesting -- it's a different build. Still shouldn't go up as high as 10x or more.


For the 2nd most important, I don't think that the mod values matter too much as long as the equivalent level monster difficult is balanced around them.

When you have weapons that do 400% or more damage of other elite weapons of the same kind, you can't balance no matter what. It's the most damage in the game being multiplied several times over. In general, percentages have to be kept down in order to have any chance of balancing.

You should feel a strong desire to upgrade your gear, which currently doesn't exist in the current state of the game (though, next patch looks promising!)

This is also exacerbated by having these high percentage multipliers. Weapons/items that have them (especially several of them) are *so* much more powerful than other items, that you're not going to find anything comparable for many, many levels after finding that damageMult item, for example. You won't even look at the other modifiers. Again, runaway percentages are *always* a problem for balancing. In this case, they hurt item competitiveness, which needs to stay throughout the game.

Bluddy
05-03-2019, 02:51 PM
BTW, almost all the percentage-based attack/passive skills have a problem with runaway percentages, that isn't currently solved by skill point limitations.

a. One way to solve this is to reduce the percentage given per level, so on the 30th level of say Cleave it gives you far less % increase than in the first level.

b. The way I'm thinking of currently (since I don't have the ability to do a) is to increase the skill point cost of each level of a scaling skill (ie. a percentage-based skill) by more than 1 per level. If it goes up by 3 or even 4 points per level, buying 30 levels of Cleave will cost 1860 points ie. 2x more than all your points. Getting to level 20 will cost 840 points ie. almost all of your points.

Shadow
05-03-2019, 03:39 PM
Weapon speed doesn't apply to skills, so it's kind of useless imho.

That's actually not completely true. It doesn't speed up your weapon when using skill attacks, but it basically takes it into account and boosts the damage instead.

Bluddy
05-03-2019, 03:54 PM
That's actually not completely true. It doesn't speed up your weapon when using skill attacks, but it basically takes it into account and boosts the damage instead.

Dang I knew that as well, and forgot it. :( Anyway, the weapon speed issue is super relevant then.

Shadow
05-03-2019, 04:45 PM
Also, how do I change the player skin?

If you mean from a modding standpoint, I believe you would want to change
Models/Creatures/MutatedFemale/MutatedFemaleA.skn or Models/Creatures/MutatedMale/MutatedMaleA.skn, but the armor parts will still automatically update to the whatever armor you put on.

Bluddy
05-03-2019, 05:22 PM
Shadow, can you change the thread name to something like Balance Discussion?

Also, regarding the mutation points, it appears to me that they're being given out too liberally. I understand the desire to create and shape a character, but that has to be done under some kind of constraints. Otherwise it's more like an edit button than a game mechanic, right?

If I can only mutate X times, I have to think and plan carefully. If I have so many mutation points building up that I can change at will, I have no reason to consider any of it.

Not sure how you want to limit them/reduce their drop rate though.

Destro*
05-03-2019, 05:22 PM
That's actually not completely true. It doesn't speed up your weapon when using skill attacks, but it basically takes it into account and boosts the damage instead.

Fair enough, I had no idea that that works that way. That is quite... non-intuitive in my opinion. But, it gives damage, so I must admit that weapon speed is not entirely useless. This makes it quite competitive with the other damage % mods I bet.

Hopefully melee damage isn't overkill at all phases of the game once your balance tweaks are live so that that damage mod will matter. I can't wait to see the fruits of your labor!

imb4 monsters are doing 10k a hit, have healthbars in the millions and 10 million player dps is scaled to 10 dmg ;p

Bluddy
05-03-2019, 07:49 PM
imb4 monsters are doing 10k a hit, have healthbars in the millions and 10 million player dps is scaled to 10 dmg ;p

No worries - monster stats are fully under our control, unlike player choices.

Destro*
05-03-2019, 08:50 PM
No worries - monster stats are fully under our control, unlike player choices.

I was actually pretty close... surprisingly, lol. Millions of hp check. 10k+ a hit, check. Only thing that wasn't nerfed to the extent that I stated was player damage, lolol.

I wonder how good summons are now...

Shadow
05-03-2019, 11:32 PM
Just a quick note, these were some really big changes, so I expect some things to be out of whack. I will continue to tweak or overhaul as needed.

Bluddy
05-06-2019, 01:25 PM
Seeing some feedback on Steam, I suggest that the requirements on items be changed from exponential functions, which are hard to control accurately, and be set instead using direct statPerLevel overrides at the different items levels, which can be controlled with precision (ie. different linear functions). Not a big deal, but it'd give you that extra level of control.

Many of these complaints aren't warranted btw -- people have gotten used to easily mowing down level 200 monsters, which is a pretty ridiculous expectation if you're expecting the game to have any challenge at all. But you'd have a lot more control using linear functions at each item level, and be able to tweak things with precision.

To me, the fact that it's still pretty easy to kill monsters 100 levels higher than you rather than being an extreme challenge choice suggests there's quite a bit more changes to make.

Destro*
05-06-2019, 05:43 PM
@Bluddy

Yeah, it's always going to be hard to appeal to the casual and hardcore crowd. Path of Exile gets a lot of flack for appealing too much to the hardcore crowd, while D3 gets flack for being too casual.

Locking in a difficulty when you start a character would be a great way to please both worlds, and that's where my veteran's mode suggestion comes in.

Of course, it's possible to balance the game for both sides in Din's Legacy: to make the game start easy and gradually become hard. But, that would require weeks of work for Shadow to get right. I know, because I came very close with my "Mo Mode" for Zombasite, that rebalanced nearly every skill while rebalancing almost every aspect of combat, among many other things, and that took weeks and several scripts.

Shadow
05-06-2019, 05:53 PM
In general, my goal is to be fairly easy at the beginning and more challenging as you get into higher levels, especially the higher difficult levels. And yes, some character options to make it even harder.

Destro*
05-06-2019, 05:56 PM
I feel like that is a very level-headed and fair approach to balance. Thanks for sharing you insight Shadow!

Bluddy
05-06-2019, 06:53 PM
I'd encourage you not to be discouraged by reactions to balance changes -- people tend to get used to the previous status quo, even if it didn't make sense balance-wise e.g. equipping the best armor on a hybrid class and fighting level 200 monsters easily (though it does seem like armor requirements were growing too fast, I gather.)

I'd especially encourage you to continue with improvements and address the weapon speed and damage multiplier issues I mentioned above, as they contribute to a large degree of melee overpower in the higher levels.

Great job so far!