View Full Version : How Should The Game Be Won
05-15-2011, 11:42 PM
There have been several posts already about ways for the game to be won. In Din's Curse, you save a town and then move on.
What do you think would be a satisfying way to win the galaxy (or whatever the greatest unit of area will be) in the new game. This thread is for discussing specifically that and what should be carried over to the new "galaxy?"
Hmm perhaps like DoP, you can win either by attrition (getting other factions to ally with you, elaborated later), or simply be the dominating faction.
Regarding the first point, since you have no control over diplomacy, your faction's favour can be won by assassinating top leaders of other races, or partaking in skirmishes for other non-hostile factions (lending them a hand). I played this game called White Gold recently, which is best described as Far Cry with an RPG-lite system. You can gain brownie points with enemy factions by killing bandits (which are hated by all factions) or simply killing members of factions that those enemy factions hate. What I did was a little exploitative: I went around on a killing spree against friendly faction members. I killed just enough so that the enemy faction became friendly towards me; at the same time, the friendly factions hated me, but not enough for me to become KOS.
Of course this system is rather broken IMO, but perhaps something along these lines can be used to gain favour with enemy factions. I've always thought it'd be a cool addition to Din's Curse if I could help a certain group of monsters kill their rival faction. Alas though, they always prefer to end up being steel fodder.
05-16-2011, 04:37 AM
I'm still fond of the idea that there would be a collection of missions built only as epic end-game missions. They would only be unlocked once their particular conditions are met. A race bent on dominating the entire galaxy by becoming the Evil Empire would have that as their end mission, but that mission would only unlock once they're close to being dominant. You could choose to help them with that for some wicked fun or just because you're on their side. A race that wants to achieve transcendence could have that mission unlock for them once they have the technology they need and you've gone through a sufficient portion of the game. Ending the game this way essentially burns up the galaxy, moving it all into another dimension.
Maybe you could also have an ending where you've amassed SO much wealth, you could buy out the galaxy if you wanted to.
As for the diplomacy, I think it's important to avoid a situation similar to what udm mentions. In Puzzle Quest Galactrix, they tried to pull off factions. The problem was that it was pretty easy to be on good terms with everybody. There was supposed to be tension when you flew through galaxies of factions that hated you, but in reality, you could get all factions to easily let you fly through, making the whole game mechanic obsolete. It should be pretty hard to change factions' opinions of you, and each time you get a faction to like you a little more, the enemy faction should dislike you.
Yeah I suppose it'd be hard to prevent the mechanic from being exploited.
05-16-2011, 12:57 PM
I wonder what kind of specifics Steven has in mind for the end conditions. I know he wants people to be able to play it in many different ways. I would assume that means you could also end the game in many different ways.
I like it when a game has clearly defined end goals. Din's Curse seemed a little weak in this area. You just sorta finish a quest and you're done even though the quest wasn't much different than dozens of other quests you completed along the way.
Then there is the old Civilization method where is just kinda ends on some turn, maybe it was a particular year, or maybe you reached a certain military, land, or influence threshold. It would always sneak up on me and end right when I am about to do something fun like nuke my only remaining opponent. I'd end up using the win condition of annihilation of my opponents and nothing else since all the other conditions felt contrived or too loosely defined.
As an example, I don't want to be simply cruising along in my ship, get a notification that some species has just colonized the last planet and then get hit with a "YOU WIN" closing screen. I'd like to be more directly involved in whatever ends the game.
I'm still fond of the idea that there would be a collection of missions built only as epic end-game missions. They would only be unlocked once their particular conditions are met.
I'd like to see something like this to, but with a few caveats. I would like to know that its an end-game mission or at least that its a plot related mission. I don't want it to be mixed in with any other not-so-important side missions. This is really just a matter of presentation. Also, I would like to know how close I am to unlocking whatever various end-goals there might be. I mean if I am close to winning a mercantile victory, I would like to see a bar graph somewhere showing that I control 90% of all interstellar trade (just an example).
05-20-2011, 12:54 AM
Handcrafted endgame content in an otherwise emergent game is a staggeringly bad idea.
What if you're working with a faction that dominates the whole game, but is at peace, and who suddenly decides to clean up the other factions? Why should their be an 'epic battle' if there is no contest? What if you're not even playing a combat-oriented class? Why should you 'miss out' on 'handcrafted endgame content' because you're Captain Minecraft or Duke Socialism?
Frankly I have no real interest in the game ending in any way other than naturally, and by abstracting into 'sector 12 of the whoever empire' you can just go to another place anyway (like DoP).
Even doing the whole galaxy at once, it'd be trivial to constantly generate new conflict based around regional factionalism/time travelling doomfleets/weakening central control/terrorists/space whales/tyranid invasion or whatever. EVE has been trucking along for nearly a decade with no end in sight through a simple combination of limited conflict, limited central control and plenty of region-based factions.
I guess everyone just wants Yet Another Civ-Style Steamroller game, but I sure don't. I don't really want the game to force me into stupid goals like 'get 1000 vespene by 1872 to annoy Queen Victoria' either. The game will develop goals naturally, just like other Soldak games.
05-20-2011, 01:27 AM
Would it work to have the end goal be something like Get 10 out of 50 Achievements, where the achievements would be things like control 80% of the galaxy's trade or have your scientists research every possible topic, or kill/capture 50 worlds/pirates?
The end game would congratulate you on becoming known throughout the galaxy; it would be really nice to have a score. You could choose whether to stop there or continue collecting achievements.
Just an idea.
05-22-2011, 01:37 PM
I know this sounds too blunt, but i cant seem to find a reason to go very far in a game, if i know that each level will just be random. Unfortunately this was my problem with diablo 2, fate, torchlight, and etc. There needs to be some sort of end game MAJOR GOAL/plot that is present in the game for me to really feel like the game will have an ending.
Ive played all soldak's game and the only one where i beat the whole game was kivi's. I played dins for about a year with my highest character lvl 53 and depths of peril with my highest character 25. Its not that i dont like that sort of way, its just that games are like reading a book. You are anxiously waiting to find out more until you get to the end of the book/game. Without a real end, its tough to get immersed.
07-12-2011, 03:57 PM
I think Din's solved the classic endgame crisis where you win the game then just repeat old content over and over. The game, especially with the expansion, is so potentially chaotic and exciting without ever treading over the exact same ground in a way that's much more fun than other random-world games like Diablo, where nothing chaotic ever happened outside of fighting monsters. I LOVE Diablo, don't get me wrong, but I like Din's solution to an endgame quite a lot and hope that same philosophy persists.
To get back on topic more, I would like it if each faction had their own goals, so you could decide who to join by not only their current standing but also their goals. So maybe one faction is way ahead in score but you need complete annihilation of other factions to meet their goals. A diplomatic faction may find victory quickly just by eliminating the hostile annihilation faction, which may turn out to be easier to do if you can ally with some others. On the surface of it, you may feel safer with the stronger faction, but you have to still analyze your chance of victory given what they are looking for.
EDIT/ADDITION: There could also be other victory types like Economic, where you spend time finding valuable minerals (on dangerous planets, of course) to give to your faction's production facilities, which would let your side earn money and basically amass a lot of weaponry and power. Not necessarily diplomatic, though; wouldn't need to befriend anyone. Maybe also a technological victory, where you find ancient alien technologies or somehow lure the best scientists to your faction.
With a lot of possible victory conditions it would make it chaotic to keep tabs on which faction is really pulling ahead or to figure out which way would net you the win first.
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