PDA

View Full Version : Item Generation


Bluddy
05-23-2011, 07:20 AM
Hi Shadow

Would you be able to enlighten me about item generation stuff? I have quite a few questions. I was able to get some answers from an old DoP thread, but there wasn't that much there.

1. How does MagicChance affect the process of item spawning, with regard to passing each item level check?
2. I understand that MinLevelSpread and MaxLevelSpread relate to how far down from the current level an item may spawn. Is that correct?
3. Min/MaxItemDropLevelSpread: Do these occur independently of MinLevelSpread but for drops? Why are they separate?
4. MaxItemDropLevelAboveBase: Is this how much an item can be higher than the current level?
5. NormalItemAboveLevelBonus/Chance: What is this?
6. ItemDropAboveBaseLevel 25.0: What does this do?
7. MonsterCommonLevelIncrease: not so related, but what does this do? There are enhancements for magical monsters -- are they also of higher levels?

Thanks in advance for your time.

Shadow
05-23-2011, 10:26 AM
1) MagicChance just increases the chance to move on to the next rarity of item.
2) This stuff is pretty complicated but in general this controls how far above the item's natural level it can spawn. Basically at level 0 it uses MinLevelSpread and at level 75 it uses the max.
3) The things in #2 control where the item is placed in the table. These control which level to actually grab from. So they are related but work a bit differently.
4) yes
5) Normal items and common magic items get a slight extra chance/bonus to be a higher level.
6) This is the chance that the spawn system grabs from a higher level (this doesn't mean the item will actually be a higher level though).
7) It basically increases the level of loot for the different monster rarities.

Bluddy
05-23-2011, 01:07 PM
1) MagicChance just increases the chance to move on to the next rarity of item.

May I ask how it's applied? The simplest thing I can think of is that at every rarity test, the MagicChance is added to the rolled number to reach the next level, and the amount used is subtracted from the MagicChance total. Is that what happens, or is there something else going on?

3) The things in #2 control where the item is placed in the table. These control which level to actually grab from. So they are related but work a bit differently.

So there's a level of indirection, with a table that's generated, and then you pull out of that table? Do the effects of Min/MaxItemDropLevelSpread and Min/MaxLevelSpread effectively add up then (randomly of course)? What about vendors, do they also spawn with both commands?

6) This is the chance that the spawn system grabs from a higher level (this doesn't mean the item will actually be a higher level though).

Because the table might have been populated with lower level items due to Min/MaxLevelSpread?

7) It basically increases the level of loot for the different monster rarities.

And how about MonsterCommonMinLevel? Is that just an absolute minimum loot level for each rarity at the beginning of the game, or does it have another role?

BTW thanks very much for the answers.

Shadow
05-25-2011, 09:17 AM
May I ask how it's applied? The simplest thing I can think of is that at every rarity test, the MagicChance is added to the rolled number to reach the next level, and the amount used is subtracted from the MagicChance total. Is that what happens, or is there something else going on?

It's only added to the first rarity. Each rarities has a cap of a 75% chance. If the chance for that rarity is higher than the cap, the extra carries over to the next rarity.

So there's a level of indirection, with a table that's generated, and then you pull out of that table? Do the effects of Min/MaxItemDropLevelSpread and Min/MaxLevelSpread effectively add up then (randomly of course)? What about vendors, do they also spawn with both commands?

Yes. I wouldn't say they add exactly since they kind of go in opposite directions.

Vendors work pretty much the same way as a normal loot drop except they typically have some extra magic chance.

Because the table might have been populated with lower level items due to Min/MaxLevelSpread?

Yes.

And how about MonsterCommonMinLevel? Is that just an absolute minimum loot level for each rarity at the beginning of the game, or does it have another role?

That particular MinLevel has nothing to do with loot. Except for quest monsters, it keeps the higher rarity monsters from spawning at too early of levels.

Bluddy
05-25-2011, 10:32 AM
Awesome. Thanks for the info. I just want to clarify one thing.

It's only added to the first rarity. Each rarities has a cap of a 75% chance. If the chance for that rarity is higher than the cap, the extra carries over to the next rarity.

So if I understand correctly, the MagicChance is added to the chance values listed with ItemNormalChance etc., adding to each one until it reaches 75? Or do we just add to the first rarity that isn't over 75?

So let's say for example we're adding 200 MagicChance. If we look at the numbers in systems.gdb, ItemNormalChance is 100 which is over 75, so we move on to ItemCommonChance which is 15. We add 60 to make it 75, and then we have 140 MagicChance left. We add 40 to ItemUncommonChance to make it 75, leaving 100 MagicChance. We add 40 to ItemRareChance to make it 75, leaving 60 MagicChance. We add 40 to ItemVeryRareChance to make it 75, leaving 20 MagicChance. The remaining 20 MagicChance is added to ItemSetChance.

Is this the process or am I completely off here?

Shadow
05-25-2011, 01:13 PM
Well you have the right idea in general but magic find is a multiplier not an addition.

Bluddy
05-25-2011, 02:17 PM
Well you have the right idea in general but magic find is a multiplier not an addition.

Ah ok. So the numbers in the hundreds represent percentages?

I'm not so sure how to apply it though... Let's say we take IncreasedMagicChance 400 from ChestSmallSilver. So it means multiplying the normal rarity chance by 4? That would produce 400, which would then be split up among the different rarities, filling them up until they get to 75% and then adding to the next level of rarities? Honestly I'm a little confused. Could you demonstrate how IncreasedMagicChance 400 would affect the percentages?

Sorry for being such a pain with this. :)

Shadow
05-30-2011, 11:30 AM
Well it wouldn't bother with normal. A 400% magic find would increase the common item chance from 15% to 75% (it's really a 5x mult because you start with 0 magic find).

If you had 500% magic find, the common chance would still only go to 75% but you would have some that carries over to uncommon. The carry over isn't a one-to-one ratio and works something like this: in this case 500% (which is 6x) would give us 90% for common which gets lowered to 75% and 90/75 (1.2x) is the carry over amount.

Bluddy
05-30-2011, 12:06 PM
Well it wouldn't bother with normal. A 400% magic find would increase the common item chance from 15% to 75% (it's really a 5x mult because you start with 0 magic find).

If you had 500% magic find, the common chance would still only go to 75% but you would have some that carries over to uncommon. The carry over isn't a one-to-one ratio and works something like this: in this case 500% (which is 6x) would give us 90% for common which gets lowered to 75% and 90/75 (1.2x) is the carry over amount.

Very interesting -- thanks. So just to be sure, after modifying the percentages, we then do the usual item roll vs each level. Correct?

Shadow
05-30-2011, 01:49 PM
Very interesting -- thanks. So just to be sure, after modifying the percentages, we then do the usual item roll vs each level. Correct?

That is correct.

Bluddy
05-30-2011, 04:35 PM
If you had 500% magic find, the common chance would still only go to 75% but you would have some that carries over to uncommon. The carry over isn't a one-to-one ratio and works something like this: in this case 500% (which is 6x) would give us 90% for common which gets lowered to 75% and 90/75 (1.2x) is the carry over amount.

When it spills over, as you show, a 500% initial amount leads to only 120%. Is that the exact translation, or is the spill-over amount increased somehow? Otherwise my calculations seem to show that even with 1500 magic find, you only have a 1.6% chance of getting a unique, a 0.4% chance of getting an artifact, and a 0.14% chance of getting a legendary item. Is this correct more or less?

BTW if this is right, it would take a magic find of 118,503 to get all rarity chances to 75%, in which case the real chance of getting a legendary item would be 10%.

Manumitted
05-30-2011, 06:30 PM
Well it wouldn't bother with normal. A 400% magic find would increase the common item chance from 15% to 75% (it's really a 5x mult because you start with 0 magic find).

If you had 500% magic find, the common chance would still only go to 75% but you would have some that carries over to uncommon. The carry over isn't a one-to-one ratio and works something like this: in this case 500% (which is 6x) would give us 90% for common which gets lowered to 75% and 90/75 (1.2x) is the carry over amount.

That makes it sound like Magic Find in excess of 400% is effectively wasted, which makes me wonder what inspired the 60% nerf on MF potion strength in V1.003.

As shown, you need another 100% MF to get the Uncommon item chance up to 33% ((1 + 1.2) * 15%). That's around the outer limit of what's possible with MF gear and potions together. Then you'd need 1,900% MF--impossible--to cap the Uncommons at 75%.

Other people have reported, and I have seen myself, that Set and Unique items come up noticeably more often with high (400%+) MF, though by this explanation we would need MF well into the thousands for a greater chance of Set/Uniques.

I guess Champion, Elite, and unique mobs must get a sizable independent bonus to their loot quality rolls. This makes Item Find more important as it ensures that the mob/chest drops all the items that it can drop.

Bluddy
05-31-2011, 04:00 AM
That makes it sound like Magic Find in excess of 400% is effectively wasted, which makes me wonder what inspired the 60% nerf on MF potion strength in V1.003.

As shown, you need another 100% MF to get the Uncommon item chance up to 33% ((1 + 1.2) * 15%). That's around the outer limit of what's possible with MF gear and potions together. Then you'd need 1,900% MF--impossible--to cap the Uncommons at 75%.


Actually, the item generation system is pretty darn cool. Even boosting common items affects all the other items upstream. For example, with my current calculations, 400% MF increases the real chance of getting a common item to 49%, but it also boosts even legendary items from 0.008% (1 in 12500) to 0.04% (1 in 2500).

The thing I'm not sure about is, as I've stated before, how the carry-over works. If we have 500 MF we get 120% extra on common. How is that applied to uncommon? Is it applied like 20 MF (because that would be 120%)? Is it applied like 120 MF (which is really 220%)? Is it boosted somehow, for example multiplying by 10 to make 200 MF applied to uncommon? All of these schemes would work, but each would make a radical difference.

Shadow
05-31-2011, 10:05 AM
That makes it sound like Magic Find in excess of 400% is effectively wasted, which makes me wonder what inspired the 60% nerf on MF potion strength in V1.003.

Other people have reported, and I have seen myself, that Set and Unique items come up noticeably more often with high (400%+) MF, though by this explanation we would need MF well into the thousands for a greater chance of Set/Uniques.

I wouldn't say wasted, it just slows down.

As Bluddy mentioned since the rarities are checked in order, a 100% magic find that looks like it is only boosting common magic items is really boosting all rarities.

If we have 500 MF we get 120% extra on common. How is that applied to uncommon? Is it applied like 20 MF (because that would be 120%)? Is it applied like 120 MF (which is really 220%)?

It would effectively by 20 magic find applied to uncommon.