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View Full Version : Response to Beta from a Dins fan


pnakotus
06-17-2012, 06:49 AM
I wasn't sure about this game, but the 30-day thing sold me. I've played way too much Dins since it came out, so most of my responses are from that perspective.

I'm not sure how much of this is beta-ness, but presentation-wise the game suffers. The intro is laughable, the recycling of sound-effects is jarring (especially the 'armour clash' alert sound), and the game menus are simply the Dins ones, only blue.

First, everything is slow. You move slowly; you turn slower. For the first several hours it seems that nothing is happening - probably a result of the random map being stars linked mostly in series, rather than a web-like or random arrangement. The 'events', unlike Dins, are bland and have little effect on the player - the difference between 'one of your critical vendors is cursed' or 'a whole level of the dungeon is swarming with guys' and 'deliver this gift' or 'buy this vendor trash for us' really weakens the impact of the dynamic universe. If this takes a while to build up to speed, the game needs a 'jump in after 5 hours' mode where the galaxy is more established.

Second, everything is boring. Combat is boring because for a quite long time you can only support one weapon due to the 'EVE but broken' slot system, and those weapons effortlessly kill everyone. The 'spells' and 'skills' and synergies etc etc of a Dins build are gone or not present for many hours. The star systems are boring, because they're just a dungeon floor that has no walls. Your sight radius is so small it can take 15m of killing trivial badguys and manually driving around to find an exit or a planet or anything interesting to do.

Third, the dynamic galaxy seems either far too slow or not responsive enough. Everyone seems far too peaceful (even in the hours of expansion, during which nothing is happening), and even slaughtering a race's ships doesn't make anything happen beyond a declaration of war that appears to mean nothing but missing out on boring quests. Even having the entire galaxy at war with you only adds danger by the instant-fail timer. This is a huge contrast to Depths of Peril and the complex diplomacy with immediate and serious consequences to decisions, and the core importance of safeguarding your village in Dins.

Fourth, the game visually is less interesting. This is largely because space is boring, but the lack of different walls, lighting effects, and environmental effects makes any system more boring than most individual rooms in Dins. The absurdly bizarre 'traps' don't make the systems more interesting, and the lack of environmental effects (especially those with interactions, like freezable water etc) makes it all less interesting and mechanically bland than previous games. Nothing moves or has any real effect on you besides the random exploding swirlies and planetary gravity.

Fifth, the multi is not interesting. Dins had multi in only a fairly minor way, as there were few ways to meaningfully interact with your partners beyond 'go to the same place and kill guys together'. In Drox I haven't even seen a module that would assist anyone else, or seen a stat or bonus that would allow me to perform any team-based role. If its just limited to 'you take short-range guns, I take long-range guns', then that's a real missed opportunity.

In addition, I think the way ship development is handled isn't very interesting. Certainly, players shouldn't be allowed to pick what improvements they get (since high slots are far, far more important than any other slot, low slots are near-useless and almost nothing even fits there, etc) but the simple development from 'small and weak' to 'big and strong' just isn't very interesting. There is a lot of scope for different role and interesting multi even given the quite limited options in the game now, but this idea that you have a stat that determines how many slots you get is not helping.

Anyway, its a neat game once it eventually gets going, and I'm sure that throughout development it will improve (as the previous games have done), but right now it's less 'Dins in a 4X game' and more 'Dins with no walls or meaningful events'. If space was more interesting, things happened more quickly, and the factions were more interested in doing things as factions were in DoP, there'd be more to do than slowly trundle around looking for the next jump gate.

desophos
06-17-2012, 07:02 AM
Unfortunately, I have to say I agree with the majority of pnakotus's post. Drox Operative feels lacking at the moment. I like the idea of a fusion of Depths of Peril and Din's Curse, but the execution leaves much to be desired. I believe in Soldak's ability to vastly improve the game, so I'll stick with it -- after all, this is just the very beginning of beta.

pnakotus
06-17-2012, 07:11 AM
I'm pretty confident that this is just a very early point and content and functionality will be added in future, but I don't see the point in sugar-coating feedback. I've seen people around make all kinds of contorted, positive-sounding comments about the intro, and someone just needs to say it. :)

In design, I think the intention is that the pressures in Dins (monsters vs village) will be taken up by the more complex interactions between factions and your squad (which doesn't have any planets, which makes it less interesting). However, in the games I've played this doesn't seem to be happening, and (just like a 4X game) the early game is full of slow expansion and nothing really going on besides 'buy me some wool' and 'kill this guy you already killed because there's nothing else to do'. The idea of protecting planets/vendors, preventing attacks on systems/the village, preventing sabotage/finding spies or whatever seems missing in the current game. Just taking ideas from other Soldak games (like planets upgrading defenses instead of just spawning useless guards, being able to interact directly with teams' military, go on joint missions, have clear and direct goals to compete towards etc) would dramatically improve things.

I'm not really sure what can be done about the combat. If high slots were just for guns (as in EVE) and displaced more of the items to the lower slots, this would allow more interesting pew pew, but break much of the rest of the itemisation. Moving some stats into the ship itself and making the ships simply tradeable (as I've seen suggested) might mitigate this, especially if this provided a reason to support factions. At the moment, you just magically get a bigger ship from literally nowhere - if you had to support a faction so they would BUILD you a better ship, based on their tech levels (which you have input into and can assist with), you'd immediately have a reason to care about any of them.

I said this a year ago, and I think it is still good advice. Play Space Rangers. The game wouldn't work at all if you had to wait 5 hours for the universe to get 'set up', or if there were no bad guys trying to eat everyone. It wouldn't work if helping or hindering factions in a variety of direct and indirect ways wasn't driving the dynamic world. It wouldn't work if you had to drive manually across systems full of respawning zero-threat space worms to get anywhere. Drox is a different game and is aiming for different strengths, but at the moment it seems like a step backwards from Dins in how well things actually work.

Valgor
06-17-2012, 07:53 AM
I don't know why you're complaining about the game's menus, they've been that way since Depths of Peril;
they're functional and the similar design adds a feeling of familiarity if one has played any previous Soldak game.

pnakotus
06-17-2012, 08:05 AM
I don't know why you wasted your time making a throwaway response to a tiny part of a series of points, either. UI should be designed to do a job, and should change as that job changes. It probably shouldn't just be recycled menus from what, six years ago, especially for what is now a fundamentally different game. Regardless, this is just a small element of larger issues, like the recycled sound. The real problems are the 98% of my post that remains.

Caal
06-17-2012, 08:32 AM
Having had no experience with space games, I thought it was just me that found at least the early game dull, glacially slow, and confusing. Thanks for this.

Lyranaar
06-17-2012, 08:36 AM
Having had no experience with space games, I thought it was just me that found at least the early game dull, glacially slow, and confusing. Thanks for this.

Just a quick question in addition: Which controls do you use? Which speed does your ship have?
I found the playing experience changed for me drastically (to the positive) after having max speed and using WASD and configuring the toggles. (A speed of 120 or even 150 feels almost painfully slowly to me as it also influences the turning speed heavily.)

Just curious. :)

pnakotus
06-17-2012, 08:50 AM
The thrust/turning control should definitely be the default; the stock Dins-style mouse-driven setup really accentuates the horrible turning radius. Unfortunately, this also exposes the simplistic 'mash 1 until everyone dies' combat even more clearly. I'd suggest that every weapon come with a skill on it beyond 'pew' to make more decisions around equipment (and maybe give other items a skill on top of their stat bonus as well). If your engine could attack people behind you, or your shields could be boosted, or your lasers fire a rapid anti-missile burst (or whatevers) there would be more to do than 'fire laser 10000 times, kill everyone' and power management would be more interesting.

Speed making the game not boring is fine, but that sort of ship setup isn't (it seems) a decision a player can make; it is down to drops and vendors to allow you to do this and the unpolished slot system to not break everything else. Being stuck below thrust 100 for ages (possibly hours) really sucks for new players, and it doesn't seem that you can be fast but slow turning or slow but fast turning. This is probably an easily resolved itemisation issue, though.

Caal
06-17-2012, 09:16 AM
After seeing this post:

http://www.soldak.com/forums/showpost.php?p=31150&postcount=1

I am attempting to build a ship this way. I have a level 4 ship now with a max speed of 200. I am moving by holding the W key and using the mouse for direction. Despite that, questing seems to take an eternity, I never seem to have anything other races want, and figuring out how to make optimal use of the equipment is confusing. I am chalking most of this up to my inexperience, but I believe the OP's points are quite valid. I think the game could seriously benefit from a good tutorial, or at least a series of LP videos.

Valgor
06-17-2012, 09:18 AM
I don't know why you wasted your time making a throwaway response to a tiny part of a series of points, either.

It's because I knew why you made those other points and agree with some of them (like the slow and rather uneventful early game);
however, I couldn't come up with a reason for why you might think the menus inappropriate for Drox, just because they've been re-used since Depths of Peril.

( Tchey )
06-17-2012, 09:23 AM
I'm level 20 now for about 10 hours of game with the same toon.
The first 5 levels were very slow, but curiosity keeps me on.
Then i manage to fly at >100 speed and it was much better.

No, since level around 15, the game if much more interesting, with lots of fitting possibilities and special weapons : stun, smoke cloud, virus, several self-buffs, crew...

I'd almost say we need 10 points per level, not 5 !

Bluddy
06-17-2012, 12:15 PM
Great input pnakotus.

Here are some of my recent thoughts related to what you have written:

One of the things that's a little problematic in this game is having monsters in the first place. In DC and DoP, the whole world was about fighting monsters. There were many monster types and they were all very different. Here, the meat of the game is the different factions and their ships. I have to say I was surprised when info came out about there being monsters in the game. Monsters seem a little out of place in this game. Perhaps they're a way to have some action, without affecting your reputation with the other factions. Or perhaps it's just a way to generate enough cannon fodder for you to kill without exhausting the races' ships. In a space game though, you generally expect to be killing ships of the other races or pirate ships.

This brings me to another point. You need to kill other races' ships. A lot. One of the bigger issues in Drox is that it's really hard to come up with a good goal per sector. As an entity that isn't a race (unlike DoP where you played as a covenant), what should your goal be? It seems that the decision was made to have you be allied with all remaining races, but I think that's not the best decision. You need conflict for a game to be interesting -- a lot of conflict. Races should constantly backstab each other. They should be scheming and devious -- much like the covenants in DoP. Alliances should be rare and temporary, and you should constantly be forced to choose sides. Once again, the question is, what should your goal be and what should the game play out like?

I think perhaps a good goal is to make X amount of money per sector from accomplishing quests. As the Drox, you don't care about having allies or about the galaxy being in harmony. You want to make money. And because your goal is to make money, your loyalty literally belongs to the highest bidder.

This is how it would play out: different races offer you different amounts of money to work for them. Once you work for a race, you cannot openly do quests for their enemies without really angering your original employers. You can, however, work for 2 races who are not in conflict with each other (until they fight with each other, at which point you have to choose). Angering your employer is a really bad idea, because it lowers your reputation. Your reputation is everything. It mostly persists per sector ie only a small part of it carries over to the next sector, but it represents how much work, trading etc you can get. If races think you can get stuff done, they'll come to you with quests. If they don't, you'll have to beg for work for free.

An even worse aspect of low reputation is that you'd open your base up for attack. As the Drox, you have to have a place to stock your supplies and store your money. This place is the Switzerland of the universe -- nobody attacks your base, because they all know they might need you some day. But if you let your reputation fall low enough with a race/ several races, they might feel that you overcharged them for the last service you provided, and they'll come to raid you and get that money back.

This last part doesn't have to be exactly as I spelled it out, but the idea is to make you invested in the fate of a particular client. As the Drox, you are a disinterested 3rd party. A game needs to have a feeling of urgency, the way that Jorvik or your covenant was under threat in DoP, or the way that the town was under threat in DC. Without this feeling, the player doesn't feel like there's anything at stake that's worth fighting for. There must be consequences to abandoning your client and switching to an enemy. Nevertheless, if that's what you wish to do and you're willing to suffer the consequences, you can do it. For example, you might be destroying an outpost of race A for race B. Race A sends a spy to you who tells you that they're willing to overlook your past transgressions against them. They'll triple your pay if you'll betray race B by detonating a bomb in B's homeworld. You could choose to do this, knowing full well that race B will come after you with a vengeance.

The kinds of quests you do for a particular employer should almost all be devious, offensive and dangerous. It's fine to spice things up with a few generic building activities, but for the most part, a race should want you to hurt another race in some way or to defend it from another race in some way. Almost every activity should solidify the choice of the player: I'm choosing one race over another, and that other race is going to hate me more and become my enemy even more. In order to have this level of antagonistic quests, it's important that the initial build-up phase of 4x games be skipped. Most of the sector should already be colonized when you start a game. Ideally, you want to start right when several races are already fighting for control of the sector. It's fine for there to be a few more planets to colonize, but that should be a small minority of the sector. Perhaps in that area (the 'frontier') races attack each other freely without it affecting mutual reputation nearly as much -- those are uncivilized areas. Pirates could thrive there as well, giving those uncolonized areas a different feel altogether.

Finally, I think it's essential to incorporate the mechanic I mentioned in another thread. As a race gets bigger, it becomes more self-sufficient. It'll offer you less pay for worse jobs. At some point, it might decide to assassinate you because you're too much trouble. Small clients are always a better choice than large clients. They'll pay as much as they can (which may be less than what larger clients can afford, but still) and they'll appreciate your services. You're therefore always torn between trying to maintain your reputation and switching to a smaller client before the one you've been helping gets too big. This also means you're constantly experiencing the feeling of 'fighting the power' -- fighting a desperate battle against odds that are against you. To help the player feel like he's doing the right thing, you could have races become more cruel as they get bigger, committing atrocities as they force their way of life on everyone else.

To spice things up, you could have some secret Drox objectives that change per sector. For example, in some sectors, you could have the mission to achieve alliances with every race. In general, this would be a very bad state of affairs, as allied races don't pay well, but in this particular case it would be ok. In another sector you could have the objective of protecting a race/planet at any cost, etc.

( Tchey )
06-17-2012, 01:00 PM
I think perhaps a good goal is to make X amount of money per sector from accomplishing quests. As the Drox, you don't care about having allies or about the galaxy being in harmony. You want to make money. And because your goal is to make money, your loyalty literally belongs to the highest bidder.

I do not like this idea. It's nice to me to be poor, and fit my ship with the loot from my hunts. So i need something to hunt.

My first grip about the game is how slow are the first 10 levels. By slow, i mean celerity, but also how i can upgrade things. I really feel like i need 10 points per level, and not 5. Or maybe find an other way to improve the ship, without spending Points in Command (with cash and reputation maybe ?).

pnakotus
06-17-2012, 05:47 PM
I have to say, when I read that the goal was universal peace, I was a bit surprised. The interesting things to do are violent, and to win you have to (I guess) kill everyone who isn't allied to your friends? It sounds like it'll just boil down to spending heaps of money to get everyone allied for a moment to win, rather than hunting down opposing guys and every single planet etc.

Not having your own base (and thus stake in the game) might be a part of this; when the whole sector is at war with you, who cares? You can easily defeat their ships (which seem to have huge amounts of HP but poor weapons) and the things they sell aren't very useful. on the other hand, direct ownership of planets is against the fluff, so....

Regarding the upgrading and speed/choice issues, I think the way of getting more slots just needs to be different. The idea of buying them from factions, with quality based on their attributes and development, should allow players to do more interesting stuff earlier and make a stronger link between players and factions. The lowest tiers of stat levels for items should probably be lower too; if you have less than 10 in a stat you pretty much can't use anything it controls, which really limits players. It's like saying, in Dins, that you need 10 points in hats to wear a hat... But you put points into gloves. NO HAT FOR YOU!

In EVE, the obvious comparison, not only is skill development totally different but there's always SOMETHING available in each area for players to use.

pnakotus
06-17-2012, 06:10 PM
Regarding monsters, I believe the idea is that the factions and their interactions will be interesting enough that the monsters don't need to be as interesting as in Dins. I'm not sure this has worked (certainly not in the first several hours) and it was quite a disappointment to see that the swarms of no-threat monsters didn't seem to do anything (build space stations, lay mines, intercept ships, camp jump points, plot to do any of that stuff, etc). For some time nobody is doing this stuff, which gives a lower pace and intensity to Dins, where the peril is immediate and ever-moving. This gives players a lot of time to think about how bland the systems are, how much it sucks to be amazingly slow, how trivial all the quests are, etc.

Reefpirate
06-17-2012, 06:21 PM
Well, I'm not sure which game you're playing... but in the last sector I played with my lvl 16 Human there were tons of monster ships all over the place doing all sorts of things... killing colonies, organizing fleets and raids, etc. There must have been about 20-25 different quests related to Bosses and their uprisings and other activities.

Valgor
06-17-2012, 06:37 PM
It seems to me that monster activities are very much dependant on the number of unique monsters at large. They are the ones that send out scouts, organize raids or cause uprisings.

pnakotus
06-17-2012, 06:37 PM
Sadly I can only comment on the game I'm actually playing, where nothing really happens for 4-5 hours no matter how many characters I make. This is not what I paid money for, and is why the very first post suggests simply skipping the boring startup phase entirely. It's heartening to know that they eventually return to the level of a two year old game, but it's not acceptable to be forced through hours of boredom to see it.

'It's good after level 10' is not really an excuse for e state of the game, any more than 'use this specific build to be fast and thus avoid the game's naturally slow and boring nature'.

EDIT - if Valgor is right, this is probably the problem. There's nothing to do early game but kill monsters, so I have generally always killed the named guys before receiving the quest to do so. Their placement will have to be tweaked (at the moment, it'd be like named guys all appearing on level 1), with a better understanding of how the connected stars are different to a stacked dungeon (even if we know that's what they are).

Reefpirate
06-17-2012, 06:44 PM
So you're constantly making new characters and playing around levels 4 or 5? I imagine that would be a little slower as a game because things do seem to be progressing as I get higher level sectors.

Sure, the game does need to speed up a little bit (not so much early game I don't think, but late game maybe), but just staying at low levels isn't really going to give you a taste of the game considering it goes all the way up to level 100.

pnakotus
06-17-2012, 06:52 PM
It's more that the early game is so bad I can't push through it. Of the half dozen friends who played Dins to death, I'm the only one even still playing this game. All other Soldaks games have been fun from the start, and hours of boredom is more meaningful than talking about max level.

Frankly, the game is a beta. If it's turning away long term fans, this is feedback the dev needs to see. I'm not interested in excuses (and it's telling that people find avoiding it with specific builds increases thier enjoyment of the game), I'm interested in the game improving, the way all Soldaks games do. For those who find the pace or presentation acceptable or fun - good for you. These issues remain, and positive beta feedback is something that should be reserved for positive successes.

rune_74
06-17-2012, 07:25 PM
It's more that the early game is so bad I can't push through it. Of the half dozen friends who played Dins to death, I'm the only one even still playing this game. All other Soldaks games have been fun from the start, and hours of boredom is more meaningful than talking about max level.

Frankly, the game is a beta. If it's turning away long term fans, this is feedback the dev needs to see. I'm not interested in excuses (and it's telling that people find avoiding it with specific builds increases thier enjoyment of the game), I'm interested in the game improving, the way all Soldaks games do. For those who find the pace or presentation acceptable or fun - good for you. These issues remain, and positive beta feedback is something that should be reserved for positive successes.

Well, maybe if you didn't deliver your speach in a holier then thou attitude you wouldn't get the replies you are getting, food for thought.

Anyways, I have only played one ship but I felt if I kept moving forward through sectors I was constantly attacked. plenty of things to do. I only encountered two races to start.

pnakotus
06-17-2012, 09:07 PM
Since people have replied just to agree or expand on my points, I'm not sure I know what you mean.

And yeah, there's lots of guys to shoot. But I'm playing a Soldak game for emergent content and changing play situations, not to drive to the other side of a map killing everyone. Other games do that better than 'mash 1 until everyone dies' or 'wait hours for the game to get interesting'. The whole point of a beta is testing, and I think this game needs a lot of work to reach Soldaks normal standard. I you like the game, good for you. If you think people examining flaws are offensive, maybe you shouldn't be a beta tester. :)

kerzain
06-17-2012, 09:45 PM
If you think people examining flaws are offensive, maybe you shouldn't be a beta tester. :)And maybe people that can't express their opinions of perceived flaws without having a meltdown might want to reconsider their delivery. Obviously they have something to say, but some folks could tone it down a bit and still deliver the same overall ideas.

rune_74
06-17-2012, 09:49 PM
And maybe people that can't express their opinions of perceived flaws without having a meltdown might want to reconsider their delivery. Obviously they have something to say, but some folks could tone it down a bit and still deliver the same overall ideas.

That is exactly what I meant....he couldn't even reply in a non offensive way.

Reefpirate
06-17-2012, 09:49 PM
Indeed. A simple tip would be don't use insulting or inflammatory language when you don't like something. Better to simply say you don't like it and then explain ways it could be made better in the simplest way possible. Saying 'zomg this was already done in a 2 year old game, wtf is wrong with you people' is not helpful.

pnakotus
06-17-2012, 09:51 PM
Since someone mentioned that named badguys still plot stuff as they did in Dins, but they are always dead for me already because I'm just killing guys (as there appears to be little else to do), this could be a result of the game being too close to Dins. In Dins, a guy would emerge on a level and eventually start doing things; the level would not necessarily be easily accessible, you'd have to find the guy in twisting corridors, etc. However, in Drox, they're often in the system you're already in, and are easily accessible as the 'dungeon' has no walls, paths, doors, etc.

Since ships can move between systems, maybe it makes sense for the named guys to move to less populated systems (or emerge there), so they can actually live long enough to build up a squad or achieve goals and impact the game before being blasted away by the player. Later on, when the factions actually start faction warfare, this wouldn't be as interesting, but it might mitigate the first four hours of 'wait for galaxy to fill up, grind for faction with fedex quests'.

This said, I notice a lot of people play on 'very fast' or 'fast' pace. Has anyone played on 'normal' and the faster settings to give a comparison? On normal, I saw 3 named monsters in three hours, and nothing factional happened beyond 'everyone is pals'. The contrast to the Dins struggle for survival is quite stark.

pnakotus
06-17-2012, 09:53 PM
And maybe people that can't express their opinions of perceived flaws without having a meltdown might want to reconsider their delivery. Obviously they have something to say, but some folks could tone it down a bit and still deliver the same overall ideas.

Sorry, people telling me I'm a bad person for talking about my feelings for a game in testing is just hilarious. When you played a beta and went to a forum where people talk about it, did you expect entirely positive content? Why? Isn't the point of a beta to improve the game? :confused:

PS it's not a 'meltdown' when I'm not the one snippign single sentences out of replies. :D

Reefpirate
06-17-2012, 10:02 PM
I usually play on Normal... So far I've only used the default settings.

It seems we just have had different experiences, for whatever reason. Occasionally there will be a named guy in the first star system, but usually they are at least 2 or 3 jumps away and do get up to their shenanigans before I can reasonably stumble upon them and kill them.

Also, it rarely takes as long as you say for my factions to start wars with each other. Yesterday there was a Utopian and a Fringe faction right next to each other in the first system and before I could even park and Trade with Utopians they were at war with each other.

I don't know if you've had bad luck or what, but my feeling is that the warfare starts up and ends too quickly if anything, which then can lead to a long time (an hour at most) trying to grind out an ally for the win. I'm getting better at getting reputation quickly so it's not that bad, but I really don't get what you're saying about it taking 4-5 hours to get the game going. If I play any sector for an hour, usually the major conflict has already come and gone and it's just clean up.

Reefpirate
06-17-2012, 10:03 PM
Beta testing isn't about insulting the developer and telling them how shitty their game is. Do you not see the difference between that and pointing out flaws in a more reasonable fashion? (you did just fine in your last major post there).

Edit: removed some exaggeration.

pnakotus
06-17-2012, 10:09 PM
It's the nature of emergen games that different people will see different things, and it's good not everyone sees the slow pace I seem to get consistently. I've tarted with two 'aggressive' factions in the same system and not only do they not fight, they immediately start cranking out treaties etc. this could be an element of being a noob sector (since winning is universal peace, this sector would be easier to win) but it really seems to reduce the things to do.

I've noticed, though, that the more experienced players have already found killer builds and simply kill the galaxy themselves, which doesn't sound like it was a part of the original idea of the game. I can DEFINITELY see it working though - in one game everyone declared war on me, and I had a great time killing everyone until making peace with someone to avoid losing.

I saw th concept of the game as a cog in a larger machine, havin to be sly and tricky to survive the faction warfare while making money/levelling up etc. This doesn't seem to e how it works, since you can literally buy victory - and the other way to win is grind for faction or grind through planets.

EDIT holy crap sorry about the spelling, on my phone etc :(

pnakotus
06-17-2012, 10:14 PM
Beta testing isn't about insulting the developer and telling them how shitty their game is, and how worthless they are. Do you not see the difference between that and pointing out flaws in a more reasonable fashion? (you did just fine in your last major post there).

Can you quote me saying any of these things?

I'm sorry that you think outlining the experience of half a dozen people (ie 'game is boring') offends you. The detail in my posts exists to both explain why I think this happens and explores ways to address the issues, and aren't meant as a trashing of the game. Indeed, simply posting 'OMG GAME SO SLOW FIX PLZ' would be worthless to anyone interested in improving the game.

I think you should look at the thread and see that people agree to some degree with what I'm saying. Why do you think they did t say anything? Maybe because they were afraid of being branded a rude troll and having people claim they hate the developer and other ridiculous things. Beta testing needs and open environment to share experience, not a back-slapping echo-chamber.

rune_74
06-17-2012, 10:20 PM
Can you quote me saying any of these things?

I'm sorry that you think outlining the experience of half a dozen people (ie 'game is boring') offends you. The detail in my posts exists to both explain why I think this happens and explores ways to address the issues, and aren't meant as a trashing of the game. Indeed, simply posting 'OMG GAME SO SLOW FIX PLZ' would be worthless to anyone interested in improving the game.

I think you should look at the thread and see that people agree to some degree with what I'm saying. Why do you think they did t say anything? Maybe because they were afraid of being branded a rude troll and having people claim they hate the developer and other ridiculous things. Beta testing needs and open environment to share experience, not a back-slapping echo-chamber.

Christ, do you totally not understand or is english not your first language? No one is saying you are wrong with what you feel, it's how you put it forward. It's called constructive criticism, done correctly it helps done with a snide attitude gets ignored and you lose what you are trying to say. No one is telling you to shutup and accept it, the fact you can't see that is baffling.

JanoLapin
06-17-2012, 10:28 PM
I agree with what the OP said. The game needs to be much more fast paced than what it actually is. I don't find it very exciting, unlike Din's Curse and Depths of Peril which really force you to act quickly, think quickly.

I think I'll keep my preorder (because the previous games were amazing), but I feel the game still needs a lot of work. I don't see myself playing it without some heavy changes.

Reefpirate
06-17-2012, 10:37 PM
I edited that post you quoted just a little bit. No one is telling you to change your opinions. But people are also entitled to their opinions about your delivery.

pnakotus
06-17-2012, 10:51 PM
For sure. It doesn't bother me that people react this way; arguably its natural. I just don't see it as helpful or constructive, because discouraging or shouting down people you don't agree with just hurts the testing process. This is why I don't go into threads of people talking about how much they enjoy the game and go on about how they're retarded or whatever.

I'm interested in how the more experienced players see the endgame - I've seen it described as quite dull, because of the 'universal peace' victory condition. I've never seen it, but it seems to me that such a victory condition is almost antithetical to a diablo-em-up game, and this might be why people end up simply killing everyone.

Bluddy
06-18-2012, 12:44 AM
I'm going to ignore the flame war and just report back from my play session tonight.

- It looks like the way sectors (areas) were done in DoP isn't appropriate here (assigning a level to a sector semi-randomly). After travelling through many sectors, I finally found the sector where the bosses were. They were level 1 and 2, and by that time I was level 7. Cleaning up the whole sector was a piece of cake.
- Actually that's wrong. Cleaning up the sector was a chore, because I had to sweep back and forth, eliminating the fog of war slowly until I found the bosses. It was quite painful.
- I'm finally able to have decent thrust, a laser and another weapon. The other weapon I'm using is nuclear, and it costs too much energy. All combat consists of running into a group of monsters, then running away while pressing 1 over and over. 2 (nuke) takes too long to recharge, so I just stick with one.
- Did I mention combat is a blur? Everything moves around me like a shmup. All I have time to do is press 1, then head for the nearest inhabited planet so they can eliminate some of the enemies for me. I don't have time to see what I'm fighting. I spot a boss and press 1 as fast as I can (given energy limits). I'm glad that I'm using WASD controls so I can keep flying while attacking, but I still have no idea what I'm attacking or when -- flying circles seems to be the safest pattern. Once in a while I'll target something, but generally I don't bother.
- Quests so far have been pretty standard and... mundane? The quests from the earlier games don't work well here IMO because the focus needs to shift to the races, and it doesn't -- many quests are still about monsters. I have yet to see a quest to spy on another race, or to sabotage another race. The monsters aren't really interesting, yet they're still the focus of the game (left over from previous games).
- In my sector, one race was eliminated within 20 seconds of war having been declared. Every other race became friendly with each other... extremely friendly. No wars whatsoever. This was really boring. Everyone likes each other, everybody likes me. Wars should last the majority of the game. Races should not be cozy with one another (IMO).
- Coming up with any interesting ship loadout so far has been nearly impossible. I assume this will get easier once I'm at higher levels, but the early game really needs to be fixed IMO. There's only 1-2 ways to handle ship components at the lower levels. Basically, you HAVE to have thrust, and you HAVE to go for command points ASAP or you've got too few slots to do anything with. If you want to avoid a heavy nuclear plant, you have to get high engineering with a solar panel or something, because power is so very scarce. You really can't afford anything but lasers at first (power limits but mostly heavy slot limits) -- nothing else will do the job of eliminating monsters consistently and quickly. That means that until you get to level 8 or so, you'll always have the exactly same build, driven by painful limit after limit.

Bluddy
06-18-2012, 01:07 AM
I should also mention that I cared very little what the races were up to since they weren't the source of my challenge and I am a non entity in their power struggles. When a race was eliminated, unlike dop where you fear you may be next, it mattered very little to me.

NefariousKoel
06-18-2012, 01:29 AM
I think Drox just needs some more "stuff", and could be just as fun as the other Soldak games.

There are lots of good suggestions in this forum such as:
*more character customization
*some space 'terrain'
*some searches warping you into 'dungeon' bases/hulks to search

Just to name a few.

pnakotus
06-18-2012, 01:32 AM
Yeah, like I suggested in the OP, the lack of things to see, things to do, and things that react to you is the biggest problem. The game (in the games I've played) seems quite static and dull, and the combat isn't interesting. The spice has to come from somewhere, and if you compare these factions to DoP factions, the difference is remarkable. The DoP guys are cutthroat backstabbers intent on winning at all costs, that you can meet out exploring and team up with or destroy, while they threaten your little shack.

Does anyone know if race choice affects ship progression (ie in what sequence slots are unlocked or whatever). It doesn't seem to.

Chumpy
06-18-2012, 02:10 AM
Agree with Bluddy about the races/quests. Could the star sectors be differentiated at all? Every area feels so samey.

- Coming up with any interesting ship loadout so far has been nearly impossible. I assume this will get easier once I'm at higher levels, but the early game really needs to be fixed IMO. There's only 1-2 ways to handle ship components at the lower levels. Basically, you HAVE to have thrust, and you HAVE to go for command points ASAP or you've got too few slots to do anything with. If you want to avoid a heavy nuclear plant, you have to get high engineering with a solar panel or something, because power is so very scarce. You really can't afford anything but lasers at first (power limits but mostly heavy slot limits) -- nothing else will do the job of eliminating monsters consistently and quickly. That means that until you get to level 8 or so, you'll always have the exactly same build, driven by painful limit after limit.

but I did actually come up with an alternate build for the early game.

Heavy slots: Nuclear plant, armor, ramjet drive
Medium slots: EMP, EMP, EMP
Light: you're in early game; take what you can get

Unlike every other non-beam weapon in the new patch, EMPs have stayed pretty much the same. Basically AoE blitz enemies. Against missile enemies, you can time your EMPs to destroy the missiles before they hit you. Nanite repair will keep you flying, and Energy Spikes help with larger groups.

This works less well in the later game, or when you have to destroy isolated planets (consider swapping weapons while you're safe?), but it worked pretty well for a while.