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Shadow
06-17-2012, 01:23 PM
Beta Patch 0.901 of Drox Operative is available over on the Drox Operative patch page (http://www.soldak.com/Drox-Operative/Patches.html). Changes can be read here (http://www.soldak.com/Drox-Operative/Patches/Changes.html). This patch addresses some of the movement issues, running out of entities issues, and several other minor issues.

Reefpirate
06-17-2012, 01:36 PM
Wow! Awesome! Great changes. I was most looking forward to the bomb/mine nerf. Thanks for noticing they were a little too good :)

( Tchey )
06-17-2012, 01:38 PM
Thank you.

I have to test it, but it seems to be a very good first patch !

Lyranaar
06-17-2012, 01:55 PM
Wow! Thanks a lot!

The changes sound great! Good thing we just finished a game. :)

PixelLord
06-17-2012, 02:07 PM
Shadow, please make this sticky. Thanks.

Mivo
06-17-2012, 03:17 PM
Lots of interesting changes! Time to start a new game, then. :)

(Suggestion: Would love for patches to detect where the game was installed to and offer this location as the destination.)

MOOMANiBE
06-17-2012, 04:06 PM
The new energy changes have made my missiles-and-bombs build completely useless. I'm level 18, with a +3energy regen charger and +100en max - that's a pretty decent equipment investment, 120 power load and 2 equipment slots - and here's the result.

Firing a bomb OR a missile takes 50 energy. I have 229 max energy.
This means I can fire four times before running out of energy.
My energy regen rate is 6.5 per second. This means that once I run out of energy, I must wait 7.6 seconds each time between firing weapons.

As a result, combat against any more than 3 units at once has become completely infeasible without spamming energy consumables. Given that most enemies I fight at this level are hordes, I may have to simply switch to an all-laser build now and stay with it until the game is patched again.

Reefpirate
06-17-2012, 04:40 PM
Lasers won't make you any better off... Same energy drain. I too was having a hard time keeping my energy up while playing today. I suppose the engineering stat is a little more important now? I've now got 3 slots devoted to energy (2 batteries and one recharger) and I still have pretty serious energy issues.

Chumpy
06-17-2012, 06:23 PM
When I press W, if I hold it for more than a second the ship starts and stops repeatedly.

Why does W need to stop movement when we have S?

ShaggyMoose
06-17-2012, 06:31 PM
decreased SpawnChance of teleport anomaly from 10.0 to 5.0 (gornova)
Happy about this one. Seemed like half the time I clicked on an anomaly I ended up across the other side of the universe!

pnakotus
06-17-2012, 09:44 PM
Great news, and great fixes. The game is starting to shape up!

thither
06-17-2012, 09:56 PM
The mac instructions on the Patch Instructions page (http://www.soldak.com/Drox-Operative/Patches/Patch-Instructions.html) currently incorrectly talks about the Din's Curse folder, rather than the Drox Operative folder. (Also, in my case it found the correct folder even though the instructions said it would not.)

rune_74
06-17-2012, 10:20 PM
I'm not sure if it is the latest patch but man when I fire my guns now I get maybe four shots and I run away for awhile....

pnakotus
06-17-2012, 10:31 PM
A lot of the changes are around power management, especially for non-beam weapons. I've never used a non-beam weapon, so it doesn't really affect me. :)

NefariousKoel
06-18-2012, 01:40 AM
When I press W, if I hold it for more than a second the ship starts and stops repeatedly.

Why does W need to stop movement when we have S?

Turn off the 'Thruster toggle' option in the Game Options screen. Perhaps this was set to default in the update.

Chumpy
06-18-2012, 02:12 AM
No, I like thruster toggle. It's great! I love being able to let go of the W button and focus on the number keys. Holding W is horrible for mobility if you have more than one primary weapon.

The issue is that the new patch punishes me for leaving my finger on the key any longer than absolutely necessary.

Lyranaar
06-18-2012, 06:55 AM
The issue is that the new patch punishes me for leaving my finger on the key any longer than absolutely necessary.

I agree, in intense combat (with mines and rockets) I often forget now whether I started the engine or not. As pressing W again kills the momentum this can be quite deadly.

I really would like to see another toggle in the options to make W just do what it should do. Firing up and getting out. :)

Cougar_DK
06-18-2012, 11:57 AM
Is it best to start a new game or is it possible to load a save game from 0.900 into 0.901.

I really like mines, and can see I will have to do something different now :)

PixelLord
06-18-2012, 12:10 PM
BTW, it was set up to just tap the W key and continually thrust (without having to hold it down) in build 0.900. I'm surprised no one noticed this earlier. I prefer the 0.900 build way as well. All I had to do was tap W and thrusting would start. Left click anywhere and it would disengage thrusting. I could pick stuff up and immediately start thrusting again with a tap. After playing awhile, I found that there are advantages to keep moving as opposed to sitting still. and the W key is right there next to my weapon fire keys.

Chumpy
06-18-2012, 04:27 PM
Right, and you can use the S key to stop. I like that movement system a lot!

GunFox
06-18-2012, 04:55 PM
The energy system really needs an overhaul.

Carrying multiple weapons is effectively useless. Yes, some enemies are more resistant to certain damage types, but I never bother to remember which and can usually plod through them eventually anyways.

Since the weapons all pull from the same power pool and consume roughly equal amounts of energy, there is never any point to carrying multiple primary weapons.

Furthermore the amount of power it would take to fire a laser cannon capable of doing any real damage would be several orders of magnitude greater than it would to launch a round from a rail gun at sufficient velocity so as to impact with the force of a nuclear explosion.

So rather than have everything pulling from the same pool of power, which simply isn't going to work no matter how you balance it, have missiles, mines, rail guns, and bombs require ammunition.

I'd also have rail gun suffer an attack penalty to simulate the difference between guided munitions (missiles) or instant transmission weapons (beams) and unguided munitions (rail gun projectiles). Ideally it would even increase as the distance increased. Beam weapons do less damage over distance, but in space the rail gun is going to hit just as hard at 1000 kilometers as it is at 10,000 km, but the chance of hitting the target would greatly decrease at range. So as the range increases, the attack penalty would as well.

In return for limited ammunition and decreased accuracy the rail gun hits like a truck and consumes almost no energy to fire.

Mechwarrior balanced munitions and beams in a similar fashion and did a pretty decent job.


(If you really want to get fancy, then the ammunition stored in the cargo hold could possibly add to the weight value of your ship. Further balancing things)

Shadow
06-18-2012, 05:01 PM
Sorry about the W thing. The repeat is taking hold and making it constantly toggle back and forth when it should be.

aReclusiveMind
06-18-2012, 08:02 PM
No problem. I think the Legion got a good laugh when instead of escaping from their planet I stood there stutter stepping again and again. :)

rune_74
06-19-2012, 12:53 AM
Is there a way to use right mouse button for thrust and left for select and shoot?

NefariousKoel
06-19-2012, 05:02 AM
Right, and you can use the S key to stop. I like that movement system a lot!

*sigh*

You shouldn't even need to use the 'S' key to stop, if the 'W' key is listed as a Toggle.

W on, W off grasshoppa. The only way a toggle should work. ;)


Edit: If you guys want two keys for your thruster 'Toggle', then I want a separate programmable key for toggling it on/off as in the current iteration. I really have no need for a separate stop key and it just makes more work for trying to fire (using the # keys at the top of the keyboard) and toggle thrusters at the same time.

Lyranaar
06-19-2012, 08:33 AM
Ok, two factions collide about this one. :)

Perhaps adding the setting for "pure toggling" W and the "nervous toggling" having it true W/S (if hit it stays, but hitting it repeatedly doesn't ruin anything) would be a solution.

In comparison to the evergrowing wishlist this is probably easier to implement and would make everyone (hopefully) happy.

PixelLord
06-19-2012, 08:41 AM
Shadow says he's going to fix it so the repeat no longer interferes. I'd be fine with that.

GunFox
06-19-2012, 04:47 PM
This may have been mentioned before, and it is extremely minor, but if you have a carrier bay and then remove it, all of your deployed fighters disappear. This is the intended functionality, I assume.

However, if you have multiple carrier bays and remove only one, then the fighters deployed from the removed carrier bay remain until destroyed or you quit.

As I said, a minor bug. I suppose it could be exploited if someone was really determined. Park, deploy a bunch of fighters, then load up your normal gear and roll into a big firefight. Ultimately that is a lot of prep though.

EDIT: Also thanks for posting rights.

I made a post at the top of this page that didn't show up (was waiting in the moderation line) until a number of other posts had followed it. Give it a look for thoughts on the imbalance of the energy system as it stands. I'm curious as to what people think.

Bluddy
06-19-2012, 05:17 PM
I don't know if you want to bring ammo into this. Ammo can get fairly annoying to manage.

The question is, what is the goal of the energy system. In DC and DoP, you easily gained a variety of spells - AOE ones, DoTs and single hits of different flavors. Managing energy (mana) meant sometimes using more expensive spells to take out larger groups of enemies, since AOE spells scale at no extra cost.

In Drox's lower levels, you can barely field 2 weapons, so AOE is often not an option. You get about 5 laser hits on a full tank of energy, which is completely inadequate given the number of enemies you have to fight simultaneously. The 2 weapons you can have are usually a beam and a missile, so it's a good idea to differentiate them with different damage/energy rates.

Truthfully, it's extremely hard to get the energy levels and rates right. I suggest lowering the energy costs by 1/2 and then slowly raising them over time while gauging player feedback. In the meantime, the cooldowns do most of the work.

Aganazer
06-19-2012, 05:33 PM
It looked like waypoints carried over to a new sector. They should probably be cleared when a new sector is created. I may have been hallucinating though and actually put it there by accident.

When you compare items, mouse over an item on a vendor and it auto-compares to what you have equipped, it only shows one of that module type when you could have multiples equipped. This happened to me when I had two shields equipped and I went to a vendor to compare upgrades it would only show one of the shields I had equipped.

fluffybot
06-19-2012, 05:49 PM
The energy management tweaks have really stunted combat for me (and it looks like a few others as well) by turning it into a waiting game, even with battery recharge items equipped. One solution is to divert the unused power load straight into energy regen, which makes a lot of sense and would bring a little more build strategy to the table by giving the heavy slots a little bit more flexibility, which I think they desperately need.

Can't help but imagine a warfighter with an array of linked-fire low-level lasers and a big reactor to keep them running constantly. :D

EDIT: Turns out it already does this, apparently. Lesson learned! Could use a little boost though.

rune_74
06-19-2012, 06:13 PM
We need some weapons that fit in the lower teirs that do less damage and take up less energy.

Also, why not some crew members that give better energy use benefits?

GunFox
06-19-2012, 06:15 PM
I don't know if you want to bring ammo into this. Ammo can get fairly annoying to manage.

The question is, what is the goal of the energy system. In DC and DoP, you easily gained a variety of spells - AOE ones, DoTs and single hits of different flavors. Managing energy (mana) meant sometimes using more expensive spells to take out larger groups of enemies, since AOE spells scale at no extra cost.

In Drox's lower levels, you can barely field 2 weapons, so AOE is often not an option. You get about 5 laser hits on a full tank of energy, which is completely inadequate given the number of enemies you have to fight simultaneously. The 2 weapons you can have are usually a beam and a missile, so it's a good idea to differentiate them with different damage/energy rates.

Truthfully, it's extremely hard to get the energy levels and rates right. I suggest lowering the energy costs by 1/2 and then slowly raising them over time while gauging player feedback. In the meantime, the cooldowns do most of the work.

The problem is that if you keep approaching this purely in terms of the previous Soldak games, you are going to have balance issues simply due to the nature of its predecessors.

Deus Ex invisible war tried having a single ammunition source and it never worked.

Ammunition management would be a fraction of the frustration of energy management and would permit experimentation with new weapons.

For rail guns you would purchase a dart rack that would sit in a normal inventory slot (It could even have modifiers to the damage done by the rail gun if you wanted to be really fancy. But that would probably get rather hard to code.). Whenever you stop at a planet, a button next to all the "repair structure" "repair components" buttons could be "refill ammunition". Basically it would automatically purchase all your munitions and shove them into the right slots. Handy and easier than having to manually purchase a bunch of energy spikes, which is the case right now.

For missile and torpedo launchers, you could either drastically lower the amount which fits into a single inventory slot, or make a torpedo/missile rack require an entire cargo bay slot. That way you feel like a proper missile cruiser. Again, there would still be the button that would immediately refill your munitions.

Suddenly each weapon is different and has notable drawbacks and benefits. Assuming the engine could handle ammunition requirements, it would work great and be even less hassle than it is now.

Bluddy
06-19-2012, 07:46 PM
The problem is that if you keep approaching this purely in terms of the previous Soldak games, you are going to have balance issues simply due to the nature of its predecessors.

Deus Ex invisible war tried having a single ammunition source and it never worked.

Ammunition management would be a fraction of the frustration of energy management and would permit experimentation with new weapons.

For rail guns you would purchase a dart rack that would sit in a normal inventory slot (It could even have modifiers to the damage done by the rail gun if you wanted to be really fancy. But that would probably get rather hard to code.). Whenever you stop at a planet, a button next to all the "repair structure" "repair components" buttons could be "refill ammunition". Basically it would automatically purchase all your munitions and shove them into the right slots. Handy and easier than having to manually purchase a bunch of energy spikes, which is the case right now.

For missile and torpedo launchers, you could either drastically lower the amount which fits into a single inventory slot, or make a torpedo/missile rack require an entire cargo bay slot. That way you feel like a proper missile cruiser. Again, there would still be the button that would immediately refill your munitions.

Suddenly each weapon is different and has notable drawbacks and benefits. Assuming the engine could handle ammunition requirements, it would work great and be even less hassle than it is now.

See but ammo encourages hoarding. A lot of hoarding of many types of ammo. Not to mention that energy is tied into your stats and your components, whereas ammo isn't. So you'd be hoarding ammo as well as stopping constantly at planets to refresh said ammo. At that point people will want automatic replenishment of ammo... I just personally don't think it fits here. I think there are other possibilities that don't require constant replenishment and don't encourage hoarding.

Ammo is very good for certain games where you want to control pacing, specific weapon usage (as in, I'll make the player run out of one type of ammo and let him find other ways of coping) and just to make the player feel like he's constantly running out of stuff (it works very well in System Shock 2 for example). For a random game it's not a great fit unfortunately.

keith.lamothe
06-19-2012, 08:21 PM
I think ammo could work for just missiles, and have missile magazine size be a stat on missile components (and possibly as a supplemental stat on certain other component types, but presumably wanting to avoid needing two components to form one viable weapon system). Refilling missiles stocks could be done automatically on docking with a planet (so as to not make credit-cost a factor, I don't think it's necessary).

So something like:
- missiles have low energy cost but finite ammo
- beam weapons have infinite ammo but high energy cost
- mass drivers have infinite ammo and moderate energy cost but higher cooldown

Would probably differentiate them enough.

But I think I'm missing some pieces to the puzzle: from a design-intent perspective how are we supposed to manage our energy in battle?
- Am I supposed to be trying to fire more than one weapon constantly when my ship is still 3/4/4?
- Am I supposed to be trying to fire even one weapon constantly in that phase? (currently I can't do this with a single beam even with a +6 energy-regen charger, and an extra reactor to get a sizeable power-load bonus from only using half my max)
- Or should I be building for a bigger max energy via battery components, getting in my shots, then retreating to recharge when it's empty?
- Or should I be using that and/or the backup-battery components that give a large instant + to my current energy?
- Or should I be using those and/or the emergency-power components that regenerate a lot of energy and can be used more or less continuously (I think) but at significant cost to speed/shield-recharge or whatever it was?
- Or am I supposed to have to chain-pop energy consumables to maintain dps in a fight that lasts more than about 10 seconds?

Not complaining about it, I just want to understand what the intent is :)

Bluddy
06-19-2012, 08:51 PM
I think ammo could work for just missiles, and have missile magazine size be a stat on missile components (and possibly as a supplemental stat on certain other component types, but presumably wanting to avoid needing two components to form one viable weapon system). Refilling missiles stocks could be done automatically on docking with a planet (so as to not make credit-cost a factor, I don't think it's necessary).

So something like:
- missiles have low energy cost but finite ammo
- beam weapons have infinite ammo but high energy cost
- mass drivers have infinite ammo and moderate energy cost but higher cooldown


That makes sense to me. But I would say, why even require docking with a planet? You could have an infinite store of missiles, but the firing mechanism could only handle say, 6 at a time. So you'd use up 6 missiles, then have to wait a minute to refill the ammo. The idea being that you have a small cooldown between missiles, and then a bigger cooldown every X missiles.

Reefpirate
06-19-2012, 08:51 PM
But I think I'm missing some pieces to the puzzle: from a design-intent perspective how are we supposed to manage our energy in battle?
- Am I supposed to be trying to fire more than one weapon constantly when my ship is still 3/4/4?
- Am I supposed to be trying to fire even one weapon constantly in that phase? (currently I can't do this with a single beam even with a +6 energy-regen charger, and an extra reactor to get a sizeable power-load bonus from only using half my max)
- Or should I be building for a bigger max energy via battery components, getting in my shots, then retreating to recharge when it's empty?
- Or should I be using that and/or the backup-battery components that give a large instant + to my current energy?
- Or should I be using those and/or the emergency-power components that regenerate a lot of energy and can be used more or less continuously (I think) but at significant cost to speed/shield-recharge or whatever it was?
- Or am I supposed to have to chain-pop energy consumables to maintain dps in a fight that lasts more than about 10 seconds?

Not complaining about it, I just want to understand what the intent is :)

I'm not sure I like the idea of ammunition (although it has been made to work in games like this before... roguelikes have had ammunition... So has Eve and other space games)...

But I liked the way you outlined the current energy scenario up there. That's what I feel now when I'm fighting in Drox, and usually I choose to stock up on tons of energy spikes and use them almost every fight. I don't think the player should be so dependent on using consumables constantly.

GunFox
06-19-2012, 10:33 PM
I think ammo could work for just missiles, and have missile magazine size be a stat on missile components (and possibly as a supplemental stat on certain other component types, but presumably wanting to avoid needing two components to form one viable weapon system). Refilling missiles stocks could be done automatically on docking with a planet (so as to not make credit-cost a factor, I don't think it's necessary).

So something like:
- missiles have low energy cost but finite ammo
- beam weapons have infinite ammo but high energy cost
- mass drivers have infinite ammo and moderate energy cost but higher cooldown

Would probably differentiate them enough.

That was what I considered at first, but that creates the same problem as is the case right now, but without missiles.

Currently the system is designed so that you are going to do roughly the same amount of damage per amount of energy expended.

The question is simply "how do you want that damage distributed". So do you want to hit really hard all at once, or do little bits in beam damage. Taking into consideration the statistical likelihood of missing and the instant damage transmission, beam weapons win just about every time. Beam weapons permit the least amount of energy expended per kill. So rather than waste a bunch of extra energy taking out that last little bit of damage from your enemy with another missile, you can spend less energy using a laser.

This is as opposed to previous system (.900), which saw rail guns and missiles as being king because they could maintain a near constant rate of fire over time, a clear winner given the large numbers of enemies.

Now you certainly alleviate some of the issue by making missiles use their own ammo source, but you still run into the same problem of rail guns and energy weapons are always going to have a clear winner when pulling from a single power source.

But with the inclusion of ammo this problem is massively reduced and opens up options for a few more interesting ship layouts.

There would only need to be three ammunition types. Darts for mass drivers, missiles for launchers, and explosives for mines and bomb launchers. Buy the slot from a vendor and it sits in an inventory slot with a set amount of ammunition that can be fit into that slot. No fuss. If you don't use missiles or bombs, then no need to carry the racks for them. "Hording" was mentioned by Bluddy as a downside to this, but that is actually the point. You want the player to be forced to give up cargo space for ammo. You want one of the drawbacks to be ammunition and the space necessary to house it.

The cost is also a factor. In addition to reducing your ability to haul gear, the use of ammunition slightly damages your profit, further forcing a more significant choice beyond "which weapon does the most damage?". Given that the player is effectively a pure mercenary, the cost of carrying out any action should be a consideration on at least some level.

Bluddy also mentioned that other ship components tie into your energy weapons, and this is true, but right now ALL of my ship components tie into it. I never put points into computers because I can never spare a slot for computers between power generation, crew members, energy regen, and propulsion. Even at 4/4/4, the best extra slot I can manage is a carrier bay. There should be some degree of freedom at play. I'd have a structure based item which has a significant power drain, or is a usable power, which generates munitions using your energy and significant power drain.

With ammo you can even mess with the tiers some so that rates of fire vs damage dealt are different. Do you want a gun that fires faster, but deals less damage per shot, has less range, and has an overall higher DPS? Or one that fires slower, does more damage per shot, but has a lower DPS? Keeping in mind that a high rate of fire means the weapon could cost significantly more credits to employ, but not only would it kill things faster, but it would also be a better point defense weapon.


But I think I'm missing some pieces to the puzzle: from a design-intent perspective how are we supposed to manage our energy in battle?

At the end of the day, you are right though. This is the most important question. Unless we know the goal, we don't really know where to go with the feedback.

Bluddy
06-19-2012, 10:57 PM
I personally don't like lugging ammo around, and much prefer a salvo of 6-10missiles and then a long reload time, or several bursts of the railgun and then a longer reload time.

What's clear to me though is that there simply aren't enough slots in the early game as it is right now. There should be room to experiment, but there really isn't. You HAVE to have 1 heavy slot for a ramjet. There's no way to do without it. You HAVE to have 1 heavy slot for a nuclear plant. They're the only way you can be comfortable with the power load -- otherwise you have to use solar panels (medium) and you're always short on power. So you're left with one heavy weapon. Beams are the only reliable heavy weapon that's cheap to fire.

For your medium components, you want a shield. You want armor. You want a computer. So you're left with around 1 slot for a medium weapon. Sure, you can prioritize other stuff, but then you lose some things that are really needed. And how are you supposed to experiment with some bonus weapons or special use weapons?

I remain unconvinced of how dynamic this system is. You can give up some stuff, but then you have only half a ship and you're lacking some basic stuff. Want an extra weapon? Sure -- just give up your engine!

I'm never even hunting for secondary stats. All I want is power to power my ship and the basic stuff like shields. In fact the whole structure of the loot system, where rare items have more stats is irrelevant to me. I'm constantly just looking for the basics, because I constantly lack them due to the limitations of the system.

Also, energy costs are simply too high. It's clear as day. I got to play with 124/225 power left at one point which got translated into energy recharge, and the fights became much more enjoyable. You want your energy to recharge in something like 6-10 seconds. Anything longer is just not effective and is frustrating. So either the base recharge rate needs to be adjusted, or the costs need to be adjusted.

keith.lamothe
06-19-2012, 11:13 PM
You HAVE to have 1 heavy slot for a ramjet. There's no way to do without it.I've been running all my thrust from a medium-slot (power-load consuming) component since midway through my first sector, and am towards the end of my fifth.

You HAVE to have 1 heavy slot for a nuclear plant. They're the only way you can be comfortable with the power load -- otherwise you have to use solar panels (medium) and you're always short on power.I ran reactor + panel for a while until I squeezed in enough engineering skill to use a 600+ power-load mkV nuclear reactor.

But I've never seen a panel that would have given me nearly enough power by itself. I guess maybe the two highest panels I've seen (250-ish each) could power a workable build for me.

So you're left with one heavy weapon. Beams are the only reliable heavy weapon that's cheap to fire.I ran two heavy weapons until the fifth sector, when 0.901 hit, and I still did two weapons for a while until I wanted to see how much spare power-load gave in terms of energy-regen boost when I swapped out one for my former best reactor to run dual-reactors (I now have over 1200 max power load, only using about 550 of it; combined with a +6 energy-regen component that's about 14.0 energy regen... not quite enough to keep up reasonable rate of fire once the stored energy is gone).

But yea, there are tons of medium/light components that I never try because my medium tier is totally packed (shield/armor/computer/thruster). In theory I could experiment more in the mediums if I fell back on light components for +shield and +attack (I've seen them; lower ratings, but possibly workable particularly for shields) but I'm addicted to both energy-regen components (which I've only seen in the light slots, and only one kind of them actually) and crew. Right now I'm running 3 out of 4 light slots as crew, and I've got components that require the extra stat points from all of them.

Currently pumping command to get my 4th heavy slot, and then will probably push on for my 5th light and 5th medium just because that will give more flexibility.

But all that said, I've really enjoyed recognizing the next "what's holding me back?" step in gearing and working towards it. Each bumping out of the multi-faceted boundaries feels like a victory.

Bluddy
06-19-2012, 11:24 PM
I've been running all my thrust from a medium-slot (power-load consuming) component since midway through my first sector, and am towards the end of my fifth.

What component is this? I haven't found anything like that.

I agree that the 'puzzle-y' part of this is kind of cool, but the system is really too inflexible. I don't think it necessarily needs a lot more slack as that would remove the tension, but a little more slack is definitely needed.

keith.lamothe
06-19-2012, 11:30 PM
What component is this? I haven't found anything like that.My current one is called "Cheap Pulsed Plasma Thruster II"; that particular one requires 20 Helm and 92 power-load and provides 152 thrust (and some defense). Iirc I had a much lower-requirement thruster for a while, but it's been a while so I may be remembering incorrectly.

I have a couple of thruster upgrades tucked away for when I get a bigger ship and pump some more points into Helm.

I agree that the 'puzzle-y' part of this is kind of cool, but the system is really too inflexible. I don't think it necessarily needs a lot more slack as that would remove the tension, but a little more slack is definitely needed.Some more would be nice, as a lot of equipment types are probably unlikely to see much use in the until you're already level 25 or so and have a 4/5/5 ship or something like that.

Aganazer
06-20-2012, 10:27 AM
I personally don't like lugging ammo around, and much prefer a salvo of 6-10missiles and then a long reload time, or several bursts of the railgun and then a longer reload time.

I'm not liking the ammo idea either, but I do wish the tradeoffs between weapon types was a bit more meaningful. I normally have ideas and solutions, but I'm coming up blank on this.

What's clear to me though is that there simply aren't enough slots in the early game as it is right now. There should be room to experiment, but there really isn't. You HAVE to have 1 heavy slot for a ramjet. There's no way to do without it. You HAVE to have 1 heavy slot for a nuclear plant. They're the only way you can be comfortable with the power load -- otherwise you have to use solar panels (medium) and you're always short on power. So you're left with one heavy weapon. Beams are the only reliable heavy weapon that's cheap to fire.

For your medium components, you want a shield. You want armor. You want a computer. So you're left with around 1 slot for a medium weapon. Sure, you can prioritize other stuff, but then you lose some things that are really needed. And how are you supposed to experiment with some bonus weapons or special use weapons?


I don't think its quite as bad as you're saying, but the options are limited. I tried real hard to find some alternate configurations and the only one I have found is to armor tank instead of shield tank with medium armor regen modules. Even with that, I'm not sure it will scale very well as I only got that character to level 5.

The medium power modules looked good, but I was unable to make them work. Maybe Steven could kill two birds with one stone by making some weapons have a reduced power load, but consume more energy per shot as a tradeoff?

The light slots could use some variety. Those energy regen modules are great, but that and crew is all I have seen or used. I still haven't seen a shield regen module, but maybe I just haven't gotten high enough level. I would love to see some QOL components here. A radar focused light module, shield regen, maneuvering jets to increase turn speed, etc.

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Also, some ideas unrelated to this:
- Those floating space Barrel/Hazard/Traps, I haven't seen any that I can target. Exploding AOE barrels would be fun.

- Mining ships that mine asteroids - They can use weapon effects on the asteroids (easy animation) and it adds a bit more life to the sector beyond colonizing, diplomat, and cruise vessels.

- Pirate bases and other enemy owned space structures. Use them as favored spawn points.

- In MOO1, I LOVED the news stories that would pop up randomly. It added so much character to the universe and directed my attention to things I may not have noticed. In Drox I like it when messages pop up from the various races. It makes me feel like I am relevant. I would like to see occasional news stories pop up as messages. Announce the destruction of a race, major shifts in power, unexpected disasters, and other major events that may get lost too quickly in the normal text log.

Bluddy
06-20-2012, 12:08 PM
I don't think its quite as bad as you're saying, but the options are limited. I tried real hard to find some alternate configurations and the only one I have found is to armor tank instead of shield tank with medium armor regen modules. Even with that, I'm not sure it will scale very well as I only got that character to level 5.

OK I may have exaggerated a little. I'll try to be more precise:

- You have to have a thruster which takes up a heavy slot. Keith managed to find a medium thruster, but that seems very rare, so it's not really worth considering as the average case.
- You pretty much need a heavy nuclear plant. You can try to use high engineering and medium power production items, but in my experience they won't keep up with your power needs.
- So that's 2 heavy slots used up, leaving you with 1 for a heavy weapon. If you go for medium power, you'll be more limited, but you'll have another slot open for a heavy weapon.
- The main items competing for medium slots are armor, shield, attack/defense bonuses and medium weapons. You can balance this any way you want ie. you can stick with shields only, you can stick with armor only, you can ditch both and get more medium weapons, or you can just boost your attack/defense. Or you can mix all of the above. If you wanted to have more than one heavy weapon though, you'll have to use medium slots to provide power.

I guess seen from this perspective, it's not so bad. My main gripe is that it's very hard to play with different weapons. Any heavy weapon that can't stand on its own is not something I can afford to use, because combining heavy weapons is so hard. Dedicated heavy weapon slots would really help with that. The main limits on heavy weapons IMO should be power -- not space. Space is what limits all your other components: shields vs armor vs computers vs. power and thrust vs. power (vs turning speed -- I think there should be a component for that).

The other issue is crew members, who really should have their own dedicated quarters. Otherwise I'll never use things like resistance items. Light slots are for little items that just help you a little -- like jewelry in DC.

keith.lamothe
06-20-2012, 12:15 PM
Keith managed to find a medium thruster, but that seems very rare, so it's not really worth considering as the average case.They've been pretty common for me, more common than +energy_regen light components.