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View Full Version : Should level up points be increased?


alstein
06-26-2012, 07:41 AM
I think this would ease the difficulty of the game a bit, but open up access to the more fun stuff a bit earlier.

I can see this game getting written off as too hard for folks who aren't hardcore into these sorts of games at the current pacing.

Maybe something like 6 per level?

ShaggyMoose
06-26-2012, 07:49 AM
One thing I have found is that you need to spread your points around more than you did in DoP/DC. In previous games, it made sense to have a focussed build that matched your class. In DO, you can't really skimp too much in any area or you will suffer. Each type of equipment has a specific function that is essential to a practical build. There are exceptions and ways to manage this, but I find it difficult.

Low engineering - Poor shields, poor energy. You can live with the lack of shields if you have good structure, but then you risk component damage. An energy-poor build however is suicide or a looong kiting game. Kiting is quite dangerous in-system as well, since you are almost guaranteed to continually run into other mobs.

Low computer - I have found that missing out on this makes your attack dicey and you end up missing a lot of shots. If you have poor energy as well, you are dead.

Low helm - Poor engine. I find it difficult to play at speeds less than 150, it just feels like piloting a 3 legged dog. Lowers defense and makes you easier to hit as well, but this can be offset with shields/armour/structure.

Low tactical - Weapons often seem underpowered to me as it is. Its not feasible to have low tactical, you will be completely ineffective in combat.

Low structure - Probably one of the easier to deal with, if you can offset with computers and engineering. Does not affect many "must have" components.

Command - The minimal gains made for each upgrade, particularly in slots, means you will dump a lot of points into this.

gornova
06-26-2012, 09:05 AM
I don't know if points is the problem right now. Is found components, because in Drox Components are all, that maximize your stats.

ShaggyMoose
06-26-2012, 10:02 AM
I don't know if points is the problem right now. Is found components, because in Drox Components are all, that maximize your stats.
You can't use components without the appropriate stats.

LostSoul
06-26-2012, 01:27 PM
You wouldn't necessarily need to increase the number of points available for use *if* crew had their own place to be equipped instead of as light components. I've discarded "eh" crew that only increased one stat on multiple occasions for that reason; what they added could not compare to what I'd have to give up. In this case chargers. On their own stats don't do "a lot" that can't be compensated for...their principle function is to severely limit what you can or can't do.

RoboAV
06-26-2012, 01:38 PM
I think this would ease the difficulty of the game a bit, but open up access to the more fun stuff a bit earlier.

I can see this game getting written off as too hard for folks who aren't hardcore into these sorts of games at the current pacing.

Maybe something like 6 per level?


I'm not in front of the game right now and can't remember exactly how far up the levels go, a 100? Compare that to the hours I've put in getting a ship to Level 17 and I doubt I will come into contact with the end game content.

Has anyone done a rough estimate of how long it would take to get near top level?

This game is set up for long term devotional play, but it dribbles out the rewards so slowly. I've spent long hours building a ship up to 16 or 17- twice now- and it becomes a real slog for me at this point. Keep a nice Very Rare heavy laser that's more than 1 or 2 tactical points above where I'm at? No, because it's going to sit in my ship inventory for many, many hours- if not days. Putting any points into Command between 11 and 25 gets you a heavier ship and + 3 to your race's primary stat, but there's no component slot at 18. Really? Level 26 is where you get a new component slot. That's 3 full levels worth of points for any real return on investment.

More points per level is one way to go. More chances for experience rewards is another. Give me a nice chunk of Exp- or even level up points- for discovering a new solar system, for clearing 80 or 90% of the fog, for making various pacts and alliances, if I kill 10 ships in range of Kak, name me Defender of Kak and hit me with some XP.

I don't mind working for my money, but I'm feeling underpaid. Minimum wage reform for Drox Operatives!

Caal
06-26-2012, 08:21 PM
I think this would ease the difficulty of the game a bit, but open up access to the more fun stuff a bit earlier.

I can see this game getting written off as too hard for folks who aren't hardcore into these sorts of games at the current pacing.

Maybe something like 6 per level?

It's easy to make a small mod that does that.

Von Paulus
06-26-2012, 08:47 PM
If we want to help balancing the game, it's better to not use mods in this phase, IMO.

Virosa
06-26-2012, 09:22 PM
Well, a problem i'm encountering now in lvl 20s is everything i find is way above my level. Like i'd need 20-30 more in this or that stats to equip a component... and if for 4-6 strait level i'd dump my point in only one stats, i'd be gimped overall.

I am feeling i should remake new ships and reuse crew i've leveled to be on par with current content and that doesnt feel like something that would be intended.

Maybe lesser diminishing returns in command would alleviate this issue or more stats point as you level up further into the game.

Waffles
06-26-2012, 09:37 PM
I talked about this more thoroughly in Shipping and Stats, in This Post (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showpost.php?p=32485&postcount=12).

The bottom line is that stat requirements for items is 2 per level per stat, or 10 per level. In DC/DoP not all stats are required for all classes, so 2/level/stat is alright - warriors can ignore intelligence/spirit/skimp on other things, mages can skimp on strength/spirit/dex. With this game, there is no such liberty.

The stats per level or requirements for items need to change.

LostSoul
06-26-2012, 10:07 PM
I talked about this more thoroughly in Shipping and Stats, in This Post (http://www.soldak.com/forums/showpost.php?p=32485&postcount=12).

The bottom line is that stat requirements for items is 2 per level per stat, or 10 per level. In DC/DoP not all stats are required for all classes, so 2/level/stat is alright - warriors can ignore intelligence/spirit/skimp on other things, mages can skimp on strength/spirit/dex. With this game, there is no such liberty.

The stats per level or requirements for items need to change.

Well that or a revision to the basics of what you get out of leveling up. Imagine if *instead* of just getting 5 CPs when you level, you get +1 to all stats and 4 CPs. All your stats scale naturally with your level, but you still have to pick a certain amount of specialization to keep up with the really high-end components.

Shadowy Figure
06-27-2012, 12:04 AM
I'm level 25 right now and at this point I'm doing ok with fighters and interceptors. My build doesn't need Computers or Structural but even my stats are starting to fall behind.

I'm thinking that Command should either give 1 slot each ship upgrade or give an even greater stat boost on upgrades that don't give 1 slot.

LostSoul
06-27-2012, 01:37 AM
I'm level 25 right now and at this point I'm doing ok with fighters and interceptors. My build doesn't need Computers or Structural but even my stats are starting to fall behind.

I'm thinking that Command should either give 1 slot each ship upgrade or give an even greater stat boost on upgrades that don't give 1 slot.

To which I say Crew Quarters (using the same slot as cargo bays). Uses the Command stat as a requirement. They also require power. Larger and more elaborate (denoting crew oriented bonuses like reduced happiness drain, or increased experience gains, or reduced costs for payments) require more power and/or higher command.

Crew would still count as "light components" if you wanted to equip them there, but space wise they become a more efficient and more attractive option as your command skill increases for larger/better crew quarters. Crew obviously cost a good amount of credits to keep happy (and of course repairs for their quarters), but most significant is a great reduction in your ship's power supply and carrying capacity.

Virosa
06-27-2012, 02:10 AM
LostSoul, i don't understand why you're so intent on gimping cargo space, leave my bag space alone. Needing to limit my cargo space to be optimal is not something that would make this game better, on the contrary.

Penalizing convenience for the sake of "more power" would only lead to an irritating, restrictive game. What make a game convenient and creating an optimum ship or character should definitively not overlap.

The problem here is that item requirement seem to scale the same way they do in the other SE games, where you could focus on 1 or 2 stats and neglect the rest. But in DO, you need most if not all stats AND additionally, manage your urges not to pump everything toward a bigger ship and not raise your stats at all.

Waffles
06-27-2012, 07:24 AM
I agree with Virosa: Crew should not take up cargo bays! Pitting convenience versus strength is abnoxious and would always feel terrible to most players. I thought and bounced back and forth regarding crew slots, and finally came to the conclusion that YES, crew slots should be a thing. It opens up the player to doing more things, like using the temporary buff light components. I really like the idea of crew quarters too, with various bonuses, and Command as a requirement.

Well that or a revision to the basics of what you get out of leveling up. Imagine if *instead* of just getting 5 CPs when you level, you get +1 to all stats and 4 CPs. All your stats scale naturally with your level, but you still have to pick a certain amount of specialization to keep up with the really high-end components.

I think this is a reasonable way to handle the issue. Bluddy suggested 5 CP and 1.25 stat/itemLevel (4/5 ilevels/level), which seemed just a tiny bit low (Computed out, it led to 2 components with iLvl at 100% of cLvl, and 3 components at about 67% of iLvl, with 1-1.5 command per level). 9 CP and 2 stat/itemLevel (9/10 ilevels/level) actually sounds quite good.