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Chumpy
07-01-2012, 06:29 PM
If so, why?

If not, why not?


I find it's basically just an endurance match right now - blast away with bombs until I need to run, then repeat. Sometimes I'll destroy all the enemy ships, then spend a minute or two hitting the undefended planet. Sometimes the planet has almost no HP and goes down in seconds, leaving the ships abandoned.

ShaggyMoose
07-01-2012, 06:44 PM
I basically have to cheese long range weapons to destroy a planet. Even small defenders are too much for me to get any closer. As previously noted, defenders basically ignore this unless you accidentally come into range. Sometimes a planet will regenerate while I am shooting at it, causing the process to take a long time. In the worst case, there seems to be a bug that will suddenly refill the planets entire health bar. This seems to be triggered by attacks from other races. All of this adds up to unrewarding planet combat...

aReclusiveMind
07-01-2012, 09:44 PM
No, it's not. I've described my reasons a few times, but essentially it boils down to the defensive fleets being stationary (all the time) and non-responsive to anything that isn't in their range radius. I think they should patrol around the planet and actively defend it.

Also, the races need to be more offensive and brings more ships to attack with. Most of the time I see 2 battle type ships heading toward enemy planets, yet I'll see a half dozen war ships defending a planet that is in a far off sector at little to no risk of attack. The player should also be able to ask his ally for assistance, and vice-versa. Right now an Alliance is no different then a protection pact other than that you can force them to go to war with a race you go to war with. The game needs more diplomatic options and they need to affect the war in a fun visible way. I think everyone would enjoy flying in with a fleet of their allies ships to eliminate all enemies from a system for instance.

Bluddy
07-01-2012, 11:29 PM
Fights against planets can be against colonies that were recently established, or against well established planets. Fights against colonies could stay pretty much the way they are. Well-established planets should be very hard to take out. Taking out a planet should require some advanced tactics. For example, a planet that produces minerals needs to receive food and ship out minerals. If you take out food supply ships before they arrive at the planet, the planet will starve. The race should try its best to get through your embargo, sending its strongest fleets. This in itself could be a ruse to attack another planet.

Going up against a strong planet that isn't weakened in some indirect way should be suicide.

LostSoul
07-02-2012, 12:29 AM
Ultimately no. Aside from range cheesing a planet with the best heavy hitting bombs or missiles, there is no practical way to take on most planets. Up close, the defenders will chew you up and spit you out. Any damage you may or may not do before retreating (or being destroyed) will be completely undone by the time you come back from repairs and replenishment.

Worse yet, often times this is the ONLY resort left to you to take uncooperative factions out of the picture. Especially at the end game when the only other faction left to take out is spread out over multiple systems and dozens of planets.

In my most recent sector, it took a total of SIX hours combined with my ally to finally bring our enemy down...and they only had a couple systems under their command when we really started going at it.

jonasan
07-02-2012, 03:25 AM
well this is interesting... i think shadow has successfully opened up significantly different build possibilities with the current system because I find that planet assault is quite doable, and for me thats up close and personal burning the world with my rather handy fusion beam.... i'm playing on 'normal' difficulty... so maybe you guys are way up on 'hard' somewhere...

i do however, think it definately needs changing up a little because right now there is not a significat enough challenge...

for me planet combat goes like this... i can cruise in, park over the world and start bombarding with my laser, until the planet burns. the defensive ships which just hover over the planet try to take me down but fail to score enough hits (the joys of being a level 20 utopian with 1200 defense!), and before to long its done....

so three basic points to start off:

1) the fact that the ships do not come to attack me before i reach attack range on the planet is a problem

2) the fact that once the planet is dead the remaining defensive ships do not continue to attack me, and hunt me down in revenge is a problem

3) the fact that i recieve no experience for this kind of assault and destruction of my enemies worlds is a problem - no exp for destroying one of the planets or killing of a race me and my allies are at war with - problem?!

let me give you an example related to this issue... yesterday i was playing a sector with 3 races main races left and the overlord, I was working with the hive... we have moved to the endgame of the sector, and as usual due to my mercenary leaning my approval rating for my alliance was teetering around th 80 mark... when i took out the last remaining homeworld of my enemies i turned my attention to the overlord, who the hive were not yet at war with... when i declared and took out their one planet, the hive got rather upset, cancelled my alliance, and dropped my rating to 34ish... 10 minutes to loss... shit... but rather than move to frantically scrabble missions i took the only avaliable option and declared war on my allies, moved from world to world and took out all their planets, wiping them out as well... at the death of the last world, with 4 minutes left on the loss counter i got a 'congratulations' message that i had one the sector - the drox were after all the last remaining race at this point... strangley the loss counter continued to count down while the finsih sector message flashed in the top right of my screen ..... aside from this bug the point is that planetary assault is way too simple right now and in line with what bluddy said needs to become a much more complicated affair, at least to take out what should be extremely well established homeworlds.

i think the problem has something to do with the scale but i need a little more time to think about this... it seems that if the whole picture of space was zoomed in, top speed (or maybe non-combat speed?) increased so that moving across the vastness of space didnt seem such a chore then 1) space wouldn't seem so bloody busy (liked bluddys analogy to fighting the immune system in a body right now) and most importantly each planet would have a defended radius where the ships of that fleet would actively try and take down aproaching assualt ships before they reached the home world then life would be a lot more difficult... seems pretty difficult to impliment at the current scale now though.... this needs fleshing out but maybe you get the idea?!

another factor, echoing bluddy once again, is the lack of defensive capabilities of these worlds I want to kill... the hive planets i took down (disregaurding the defensive ships trying to shoot me down once im in attack range) present no more defense to my attacks than a very big asteroid right now.... and sometimes much less due to the never ending attacks of the overpowered monster ships (this i feel is the primary cause of early game race death?!).... what we need is for these planets to be defended in a more realistic way by their owners... can you imagine playing 'AI war' for example and having your home world without at least two levels of forcefield to give your defensive fleet time to bring down the attackers? can you imagine not pumping out new defensive ships when under such an assault? what if the planets themselves had weapon systems that could return fire rather than being helpess energy bars in space?

if these kinds of advanced systems existed, and taking out a homeworld was the kind of difficult task it should be (i think) then there is no way i could have beaten that loss timer and destroyed my allies... i should have to hack a nearby ships computer system to upload a computer virus to bring down the sheilds, or invoke a riot to stop the planetary defese force firing the homeworlds defensive weapons, i should need companions from my allies to not be overwhelmed by the defensive force... somehting like this?!

i guess defensive turrets in space is out of the question... and the scale thing is probably too much to ask.. but what if the planet had weapons and multiple hit spots, all of which had to be taken down before the core planet health could be attacked, and they were the health of sheilds and defensive weapons (turrents on the planet) - if you were devestatingly strong you might be able to try a head on assault (but i think that would require an accompanying fleet of allied ships?! - think if its possible such things should be requestable with your allies on the realtions screen, ie. 'form fleet and attack planet x' requests/mission suggestions) but also it would be possible through mercenary style exploits to weaken such a planet and remove these extra defenses to make things more possible.... and if the planet pumped out defensive ships during attack maybe reducing your opponents resources so they could not do this would be another approach.... see where i'm going with this?! cheers

ScrObot
07-02-2012, 04:42 AM
Sometimes a planet will regenerate while I am shooting at it, causing the process to take a long time. In the worst case, there seems to be a bug that will suddenly refill the planets entire health bar.

I've seen this as well, and I just assumed that at set intervals (every 60 seconds or whatever) the planet regenerated some amount of "health". I'm not sure if that's the intended mechanic or not. It certainly discourages you from sitting on the opposite side of the planet from the defenses and plinking away with long range weapons.

How about a help item when you first attack a planet that discusses this (unless it's a bug)?

ShaggyMoose
07-02-2012, 05:30 AM
I've seen this as well, and I just assumed that at set intervals (every 60 seconds or whatever) the planet regenerated some amount of "health". I'm not sure if that's the intended mechanic or not. It certainly discourages you from sitting on the opposite side of the planet from the defenses and plinking away with long range weapons.
The regeneration seems to be different to the "instant full health" that I am seeing occasionally. Normally, it almost seems like the regeneration occurs as a percentage of the planets current health. So high health equals large health gain, low health is low health gain. But I have seen a planet go from 1/3 health straight to full health a few times, which just isn't consistent with the regular behaviour.

gornova
07-02-2012, 01:36 PM
no.
a Drox Operative as first class dude in the galaxy cannot do anything against a bigger planet. against a small colony is too easy.

I've read here in beta forum a suggestion to help attacking a planet: let player lead a fleet from a race againsta a planet so
1) player is not alone
2) defending troops can attack fleet and not too much player

jonasan
07-03-2012, 09:54 AM
as well as an exp bonus for destroying the planet there should definately be a substantial relation gain with a freindly race when destroying a planet of one of the races they are at war with! :)

ShaggyMoose
07-04-2012, 09:37 AM
as well as an exp bonus for destroying the planet there should definately be a substantial relation gain with a freindly race when destroying a planet of one of the races they are at war with!

Agreed!

Under 0.906, very happy with the way that ships patrol now. One really small annoyance though... They start patrolling as soon as anyone approaches, even friendlies. What this means is that the engine sound is basically running non-stop the whole time you are sitting there trading. Am I the only one that this is annoying?

jonasan
07-05-2012, 03:37 AM
without changes to rewards for joining the wars and taking down worlds everything is starting to feel a little strange to me.... Right now I have a sector objective to help the Fringe (in this sector) wipe out the Hive and Humans. After completing many missions i have now helped the Hive get well ahead in this 'established' sector... But fighting in their on going war and helping bring down planets and ships of enemy races completely lacks sufficient reward right now... and this is the end game for this sector?!

i have killed a total of 45 planets in 8 sectors according to my journal and never got a drop of EXP or relation gain from my exploits. This has to change... and i would also be pleased to see the race i am fighting for contact me with cash rewards for my efforts... if there were 'help with assault on x world' missions then this would take care of this a little... but i like the way right now you can freely choose to help the war effort in a way that suits you and your build - just need the game to recognize whats going on! At the moment the best route for advancement is to keep doing the missions (for exp/cash) but in order to really move the sector towards a 'win' i have to get involved in the wars... seems a little counter-intuitive... :confused:

fotan
07-05-2012, 04:33 AM
At the moment the best route for advancement is to keep doing the missions (for exp/cash) but in order to really move the sector towards a 'win' i have to get involved in the wars... seems a little counter-intuitive... :confused:


It makes sense if you think about it. I would say this is why there's capitalists and nationalists in real life.


Right now there is a nationalist way to win. But perhaps, there could be a capitalist way to win, where you amass a fortune of some sort or a certain amount of power?

I really don't see why there couldn't be multiple ways to win. The system is based on 4X type games, which generally give you more than one way to win.

alstein
07-05-2012, 11:25 AM
My suggestions:

buff xp for destroying ships/planets

be able to encourage races to attack planets if you're allied with them in a war


I do think it's fine powerwise- you just need some help to take out planets, that's fine.

robmack
07-05-2012, 03:29 PM
I just want to chime in that I like the way it is now regarding not being able to kill a major planet single handedly. I don't think you are suppose to be able to do that.
Now, a fledgling colony, sure, you can wipe it out, that makes sense, but not a major planet.

If you want to take down the big dogs, you need to keep an eye on the messages about other races attacking that planet. When they do that, join in on the attack.

Anyway, try that out, and see if planet combat is a little more fun. You can also defend some of your allied races planets, which is also a good time.

Maybe you won't turn the tide of the war in a single battle, but you can definitely push it in the right direction.

The point is to see what the NPCs are doing, and then throw your weight behind them.


The only thing that would make this better is if there was a countdown to when they are going to attack. Maybe you need to be allied with the race to get this countdown, or maybe its quest generated. (Or maybe an attack is quest generated directly)

jonasan
07-06-2012, 03:56 AM
I like the way it is now regarding not being able to kill a major planet single handedly. I don't think you are suppose to be able to do that.
Now, a fledgling colony, sure, you can wipe it out, that makes sense, but not a major planet.

not sure if your playing on a higher difficulty than me (i stick to the normal suggested level on new sector select screen) but i find that its possible, too possible infact to take out the small colonies and the major worlds... and that its also too easy for monsters to do the same....

see this idea for how to make things a little more secure for those major planets...

http://www.soldak.com/forums/showthread.php?p=33080#post33080

agreed, that your approach to timing your assault with monsters is a good idea, but I also want to see a more integrated mission approach to timing your assault with your allies!

fotan
07-06-2012, 04:23 AM
I also want to see a more integrated mission approach to timing your assault with your allies!


I agree, if I'm allied or have a relationship with them, they need to tell me specifically when they need me to do dangerous missions like destroying or taking over planets when other ships are doing so at that particular moment.

Nori
07-06-2012, 10:52 AM
Maybe the question should be is it worth it... At the moment planet combat is a boring unrewarding affair... You would think that helping a race destroy another one's planets would make them like me more, but they don't... And why don't I get at least a few credits (or modules) for taking a planet out? Pretty please? :p