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krozman
06-06-2008, 05:02 AM
I've been lurking here ever since I purchased the game, and now that I have a character over level 70 I've got some questions regarding the competitive balance of the game.

So far, playing as a warrior, i've found this game to be unlike what others have been saying on the boards, namely, EASY. Reviewers have stated that the game is just far too hard. Well, I would admit in the beginning I was being completely overrun, but these are the strategies I use for easy victory.

1. hotkey your portal. Your portal isn't just there to pop up when not in battle. When you see your boss coming up, pop your portal (while you're moving if you like or escaping a fight you can't win) and heal up for the big fight. Can't beat a boss and can't afford potions? Most bosses don't heal and you can just pop in, get a few hits in, and pop out. Seem like cheating? I didn't alter the game from the natural state, so I don't think so.

2. Get a Priest that casts Vitality on group. I don't care if he's 20 levels below you, if you get a priest casting vitality on the group, you will rarely lose raids.

3. Raid, and raid 10 levels above you. I load up on a huge hard hitting mace, and talents that give bonuses to crushing blows and one hit kills. Since I have tons of vitality ala my priest, I can load up on Strength to level. Once you have those tools, start your new world, and start immediately raiding your opponents. They wont have the ability to have pets yet, once your enemies are on screen, <PAUSE> select a kill target, unpause, kill in one shot. pause again, select new target, etc. Even 10 levels above you, your one shot one kill warrior is going to maul the enemy. If you know you're going to lose, pause unclick raid, and you'll be ported back to heal with the rest of your surviving members intact. I also pause to heal and use my potions. Gets too sloppy otherwise. Now that you have the ability to raid 10 levels above you, you'll have end of level chest rewards that will give you amazing armor/weapons for you and your party. When you get the armor for your particular level, go get your levels and experience, 10 levels later, repeat this raid cycle to get new armor weapons, etc. Also, when you immediately take out your opponents, you'll have the entire world to explore and get wandering recruits 10 levels above you, (make sure you use healing potions to keep your wandering recruits alive until you can clear and recruit them safely).

4. One of the issues I see is that questing is not worth it at certain levels, to the point where it's actually better to just use the portal technique to just hit the high level areas and just kill masses of mobs. One quest may bring 700 exp, which is good when mobs your level are only bringing 16 exp. However, go 10 levels above you and you'll be getting 150+ per mob, and the levels just flow easily. The quest line ending in black temple is the only quest line I do for the experience, and then it's very annoying to skip 16 quests to get to the ones you want, once you've already completed them on that skill level.

5. Starting new worlds you can trade for very nice items for low amounts of money at the beginning, and vendors have your books too. Cycling through the worlds by raiding en mass makes it fairly easy to collect loot.

6. Chests. Currently I have an entire bag devoted to "magic find chance" equipment. When I am about to beat an enemy resulting in a chest, I pop my potion, <pause> put on an entirely new set of armor resulting in about +400% magic find chance, making it absurdly fun to open chests or kill boss creatures. I'm not sure if you can do this AFTER the chest is created, but my sense is that you can even put the equipment on after the monster is dead, but before you open the chest to take advantage of this. I dunno, but I would never sacrifice strength or vitality for Light intensity or Find items or money or anything. Survival = loot.

7. Even with all my abilities to get loot, finding a complete set of equipment prior to out leveling the set is VERY VERY RARE. I've never had more than 3 pieces before finding better green gear for my character, and the bonuses aren't that amazing.



Other than that, I find the game very fun, and hope I get browbeat for my simple stream of conscienceness write up.

(name here)
06-06-2008, 07:30 AM
yeah, the game starts to get pretty easy as you level up. i'm not quite sure why, but i'll bet that the balance is broken because people stick with the occiasional super item when the game assumes you use a lower power one of the same level. it has to, super items are quite rare.

Paladin Sponge
06-06-2008, 09:33 AM
Browbeat? Dude! The portal trick is a lifesaver.

Delve
06-06-2008, 11:39 AM
Have you played with highly aggressive covenants twice your level?

krozman
06-06-2008, 12:16 PM
Have you played with highly aggressive covenants twice your level?

I beat level 20 at level 10 once I learned the portal trick. I beat level 50 at level 30 and even finished the level 50 quest line using said portal trick. (took a while to beat monsters that one shot me ....like 15 times, but I won!

Obviously now that I'm in my 70's I could try and do level 100, but I honestly don't see the point because even on highly aggressive I can easily obtain enough crystals for guards in short order and defend up to two raiding covenants with my recruits.

Another problem with going over 20 levels higher is that even when you win, the chests drop items too high for your level, so honestly that shouldn't be the only way you get challenge out of this game.

Don't get me wrong, i'm thinking it'll be much harder when I move out of the warrior class (stock up on +vitality items probably). I'm just thinking warriors are the easy mode and I just happened to pick them first.

Delve
06-06-2008, 12:52 PM
One of the most common CRPG assumptions is that warrior/fighter = easy. It's usually correct too.

Though I'll point out that since death doesn't carry an agressive penalty in DoP if you don't mind dieing a lot then nothing can be considered hard. Though agressive enemy covenants twice your level can eat your lunch if you're not careful.

Of course, if you really want more challenge you can mod the game to suit your preference. Make creature armor thicker, increase enemy covenant's rate of adventuring (and thus leveling up), decrease money drops, I bet there's a way to fiddle with the crystal economy in order to reduce that availability as well, increase XP requirements, you may be able to decrease the amount of skill or stat points gained at levelup, etc etc etc. There are more options than I can enumerate here, just dig around in the GDB files. I'd start with systems.gdb, as that controls much of the basic attributes of the DoP world.

Spellbound
06-06-2008, 03:46 PM
I think i'd eventually like to try that, but im scared to fiddle with files! I know i could make a backup..but..uhh..

Delve
06-06-2008, 04:59 PM
Make a backup of your User folder when you're testing a new mod, so you don't mess up your save data.

Other than that, just use loose files to create your mod. Editing the files inside the asset zips is a bad idea. If you've just got loose files then all you have to do to undo your changes is delete the loose files.

Extract the file you want to edit from the asset file and create a folder that mimics the folder inside the zip, then have at it. If you screw up something, just delete the file you extracted.

(name here)
06-06-2008, 05:02 PM
you know, if the game is too easy, stop using those tricks. sure, they don't require modding, but you say they take the fun out of it. so stop using them.

Shadow
06-06-2008, 05:08 PM
It actually wouldn't be too hard to whip up a really tough challenge mod. I might just have to do that.

You could also start a hardcore or even a hardcore/loner character if you want a real challenge.

krozman
06-06-2008, 05:47 PM
It actually wouldn't be too hard to whip up a really tough challenge mod. I might just have to do that.

You could also start a hardcore or even a hardcore/loner character if you want a real challenge.

Here are a few suggestions:

1. Increase cast time and reuse time on portal to curtail dependence on using the portal as a method of healing in the middle of a fight, or make it so the portal can only be used when "out of combat."
2. Make it impossible to recruit NPC's more than 10 levels higher than you. I can easily use moving portals in dangerous areas 20 levels higher than me, and when I see the blue dot on the minimap, I rush over and recruit him to the covenant. Then I can use that 20+ level recruit to raid my enemies for easymode victory.
3. Bigger death penalty.

I don't see "loner" characters as feasible for a challenge because even if I was level 55 and the place i'm raiding is level 45, 5 lvl 45 characters will still wipe me out without question.

The "one death" challenge is something that might be hard, but honestly it just becomes tedious in that I don't take fun risks like I do now. I'd have to kill normal creatures for money for potions for the hard fights, and I just don't think it's high on the fun factor.


OH OH....4. Large scale invasions of mobs to the city. I want invasions that actually have the potential to destroy lifestones of me and my enemies. I want scripts of bosses that come wave after wave. I want to be laughed at as 20 elite mobs swarm my lifestone.

Basically, I want to feel the pain and actually lose a few of these fights, because most of my losses come from either fighting something I knew I shouldn't win anyway, or being lazy and stupid (i.e. going to the bathroom or something and leaving the game unpaused in the middle of a zone).

Spellbound
06-06-2008, 07:45 PM
That sounds like it'd be freaking tough. On the modding issue, I think i'll leave the game as is. I actually tried out what Krozman did, about to kill a unique or legend and swapping to a about +270% find magic armor set. It works very, very well. And yes, you can swap to that armor after the chest is dropped as well.

(name here)
06-06-2008, 08:18 PM
Here are a few suggestions:

OH OH....4. Large scale invasions of mobs to the city. I want invasions that actually have the potential to destroy lifestones of me and my enemies. I want scripts of bosses that come wave after wave. I want to be laughed at as 20 elite mobs swarm my lifestone.



that's not too hard. alter the spawn chances in town and adjust the number of enemies who show up in a town attack. but really, do you want to have enemy covenents bascially killed by the RNG?

krozman
06-06-2008, 08:41 PM
that's not too hard. alter the spawn chances in town and adjust the number of enemies who show up in a town attack. but really, do you want to have enemy covenents bascially killed by the RNG?

It already happens when a NPC covenant attacks another NPC covenant. Most of my 6 covenant games play out where two of them are killed by another NPC, and when their lifestone health is under 50%, I join in for a shot at the reward chest (requiring only the kill shot).

So honestly If we have hordes of monsters coming in randomly while we raid each other and quest for high experience and recruits, etc, it puts a sense of "time management" in the game where I actually have to make a choice on how to defend, etc. Like I could just kill off the covenants in the start and just get 5 levels or so, BUT by killing off the covenants I get no help defending my town from invasion. Do you see my point?

I don't see the RNG as the enemy. This isn't a game where if you lose your lifestone you lose your character. We should be able to say, "I lost 5 worlds when leveling my mage to 100, wow!" and not "I always played 10-15 levels higher than my character and got bored always winning.

As long as I pay attention and manage my time well, I can still beat a hard game, and only when the RNG has 2 covenants attack me when i'm down recovering from a horde of town monsters is the RNG really going to screw me. Anywhoo, i'm rambling....

Delve
06-07-2008, 06:05 AM
that's not too hard. alter the spawn chances in town and adjust the number of enemies who show up in a town attack. but really, do you want to have enemy covenents bascially killed by the RNG?

I might have to look into this. I've always though the town doesn't suffer enough. ;)

Reduce the chance of poisoning, stoning, disease and resource gathering events in exchange for dramatically increasing the town attacks, bombardment, and scouting events. Bring the focus of the random events back into the town, making it more troublesome to complete the main quests out in the field.

krozman
06-07-2008, 08:07 PM
I wouldn't decrease events in the world. Give people a sense of real loss or sacrifice by making choices of what to do and what not to do. Most games after I beat an opponent I run out of quests, so I end up restarting out of lack of anything better to do than grind.

Spellbound
06-07-2008, 08:08 PM
Yeah, but then again, you could work your way into a 15-20+ your level zone and grind there for about 15 minutes and get alot of xp as well..

Delve
06-07-2008, 08:52 PM
I'll avoid grinding like that until I hit about level 80, if I can manage.

I ground out level 48 and 49 so I could start a new world at the next difficulty level, but beyond that grinding is just sort of pointless. Once you beat both the main quests and the AI covenants you might as well start a new world to keep things interesting. Doing it sooner rather than later costs you nothing really.

Shadow
06-17-2008, 11:55 AM
I created a small challenge mod (http://www.soldak.com/Depths-of-Peril/Mods/Challenge-Mod.html) for those of you that find the game too easy. The link will tell you what has changed, what to download, and where to put the mod for it to work.

Inside the mod's zip file is only 1 text file with very few lines, so if you wanted to it would be very easy to modify to make it as hard as you want.

(name here)
06-17-2008, 06:17 PM
well, i tested it out and died to turen twice before he went down. also, my first fight with the mod active was with a giant elite styrac, which was a nice "whoa" moment

krozman
06-17-2008, 09:33 PM
Sweet, will try asap.