Skill balancing

[alstein]

One question, does stealth's stealthiness improve with level at all? It probably should.

[Bluddy]

Originally Posted by Max_Powers

Anyway, long story short - I think Stealth is fine as it is. I would rather skills that aren't so good get a boost instead of nerfing anything. Also, I could have sworn that I saw a post the other day, Bluddy, that said you haven't taken a character out of the 20's yet. Is that true?

Yes you're right. Truthfully, I should be shutting up in this thread. I can talk about NPC balance, interactivity and such, but I really have no right to talk about skill balance since I just haven't logged in enough hours (though, in my defense, I have tried). So that's it for my attempt at contributing to this thread.

[Crisses]

Ok, I have a level 41 trickster/hunter (last tested at level 41, dungeon level 50 Elite, Sleight of Hand 4, Stealth 10, hunter's Light Touch at 10) and I've logged a bunch of fun observations about both Stealth and Sleight of Hand which I use pretty extensively. I took this hybrid especially to be a covert-op agent. Works nice in multiplayer when I have to run around and activate a gate for the group, or go a few levels ahead to stop some nasties before they do something awful while the rest of the group trogs through knee-deep monster corpses.

That said -- first thing you do is take an experience hit. You can "win" the town quicker, but if you kill less critters, you get less XP. Period (except multiplayer when you get a share of XP). Sleight-of-hand does not give you XP for causing wars between critters. So it's great to clear a crowded tight hall so you can get by -- and it's rather amusing -- but on the XP side, sitting around and watching them kill each other does you no good. However, it's good to get them hurt so you can pick them off easily if that's your thing.

1) Stuff catches on that I'm there pretty often. Even if I throw an immolation trap (hunter - appx level 4-5 trap) at a door a whole corridor away, I get the sound penalty. So the critters (that survive) pour out of the room and will find me around the bend. But at least they have to walk through the flaming door first Same goes for setting groups of barrels on fire. I throw the immolation trap and run like heck, even stealthed. I have to be a certain distance away to escape discovery -- not just out of sight. If those barrels explode, a bunch of hurt monsters are coming after me. How they know I did it is a mystery. But it does add spice to my 007'ing.

2) Once a critter "knows" you're around, even if you re-stealth through a gate, stairs, or around a corner, they seem to catch on that you're around pretty quick. Maybe it adds to their "hate" factor? Dunno.

3) Some critters are more perceptive than others. Almost anything underground -- most notably zombies.... And Elites, Champions, Bosses -- you don't have much chance to fool them unless you're really concentrating on pumping up your covert skills. I think having the hunter's Light Touch helps some. Expect to be caught. Don't count on re-stealthing to get back through the room.

4) Sometimes I can run into crowded rooms and be in the midst of tons of critters and not be noticed. If they're already fighting and distracted it helps a lot (chaos town mod for example). But if I run around stealthed and they're bored -- and I DON'T distract them with slight of hand -- they're more likely to catch me. At least that's what it seems like...

5) Slight of hand on a critter that has no viable target breaks your stealth. i.e. don't use it on a crowd of 1 or on a critter too far away from viable targets. Makes sense, after all you're giving them a weggie and hoping they blame their bunkmate.

6) If the boss or target(s) of a quest are ghosts, bugs -- something that's hidden until it attacks you -- you miss out with Stealth. No use running ahead to get the boss and snipe him if you can't FIND him. You have to trigger these critters to fight them. So you may end up having to wipe all the critters on the level anyway.

Much of my observations could be luck of the draw or coincidence. Then there's the bug...

Most notably, I've confirmed that slight of hand is ineffectual on anything that ONLY has a ranged attack when it targets its own kind. It's a game bug. The Hate goes up -- they try to attack the buddy, but it's not effective. Their buddy doesn't realize they're "under attack" -- they never engage their attacker, they completely ignore it. The animation (arrow, fireball, etc.) doesn't happen. The health bars never appear to show damage (because none is taking place). I've seen this with Torvah shamans, Dark Elf mages & priests (but the mage's ice storm works), and Skeleton Archers. I've been double checking on other species as I come across them. If someone wants to double check it, find a group of one of these species (also try naga priests, liches...) without other viable targets nearby, and sleight-of-hand them. I've even gone away and come back and they're still attempting to hurt each other.

In conclusion, I think that the stealth/sleight of hand combo is a viable combo but not overpowered because of the XP hit involved and the relatively high chance of being discovered. It's a good alternative to complete hack-n-slash if that's not your style. Sometimes, though, a quest just requires you to kill something.

I have a bunch of observations in the DC bugs thread...I just loaded Demon Wars today and was looking at the thread.

[Bak]

Only have my rogue up to 20, so don't know if this still applies at higher levels. If critters are zeroing in on my stealthed rogue (due to noise or what not), I un-stealth (if not already done so) to get things back to normal, then start to run away. If I can get around a corner without anything in sight, stealthing at that point will stop the mob from chasing your character.

Comes in very handy when shirikening the boss monsters from a distance, while near an intersection. But the important thing is to be visible to the boss, before running out of sight.

[DeathKnight1728]

Originally Posted by Crisses

Ok, I have a level 41 trickster/hunter (last tested at level 41, dungeon level 50 Elite, Sleight of Hand 4, Stealth 10, hunter's Light Touch at 10) and I've logged a bunch of fun observations about both Stealth and Sleight of Hand which I use pretty extensively. I took this hybrid especially to be a covert-op agent. Works nice in multiplayer when I have to run around and activate a gate for the group, or go a few levels ahead to stop some nasties before they do something awful while the rest of the group trogs through knee-deep monster corpses.

That said -- first thing you do is take an experience hit. You can "win" the town quicker, but if you kill less critters, you get less XP. Period (except multiplayer when you get a share of XP). Sleight-of-hand does not give you XP for causing wars between critters. So it's great to clear a crowded tight hall so you can get by -- and it's rather amusing -- but on the XP side, sitting around and watching them kill each other does you no good. However, it's good to get them hurt so you can pick them off easily if that's your thing.

Ok, that is very good news for me. I have always wanted to try the sleight of hand way but never got good results from it. I might have to try that now. But the only problem is still that if you dont get experience from the monster wars that you are starting, it kind of cuts down on your experience. Its cool that you have a group that you play with that has you do covert op stuff, but for me, I dont. And if i went three levels lower, someone on the first floor might attack the town, which would screw me big time. There must be a way to eventually maybe add that whatever monster is killed with sleight of hand-the experience goes to the person that cast it. That would make sense and it would be fun too.

By the way Crisses, have you had any luck with jab? I got it to lvl 6 but didnt notice monsters attacking other monsters instead of me. It does fair damage but overall im not sure.

[Max_Powers]

Originally Posted by Crisses

1) Stuff catches on that I'm there pretty often. Even if I throw an immolation trap (hunter - appx level 4-5 trap) at a door a whole corridor away, I get the sound penalty. So the critters (that survive) pour out of the room and will find me around the bend. But at least they have to walk through the flaming door first Same goes for setting groups of barrels on fire. I throw the immolation trap and run like heck, even stealthed. I have to be a certain distance away to escape discovery -- not just out of sight. If those barrels explode, a bunch of hurt monsters are coming after me. How they know I did it is a mystery. But it does add spice to my 007'ing.

To me this is a bug. Here is my story:

I have a level 72 trickster/necro. I will find a locked door. I back way up away from door and throw a shuriken. Upon doing that my pets(5 raise dead)recognize the door as a target. Sometimes the shuriken throw will miss or not destroy the door. My pets rush in an bash it open. Then, instead of what has been locked in side just assuming that it was my pets that attacked it - I am spotted....way back here....behind a wall of baddies. That makes no sense and has to be a bug.

Only have my rogue up to 20, so don't know if this still applies at higher levels. If critters are zeroing in on my stealthed rogue (due to noise or what not), I un-stealth (if not already done so) to get things back to normal, then start to run away. If I can get around a corner without anything in sight, stealthing at that point will stop the mob from chasing your character.

Comes in very handy when shirikening the boss monsters from a distance, while near an intersection. But the important thing is to be visible to the boss, before running out of sight.

Yes, I use this tactic often. It was what I meant by "stealth tactics". If there is a darkness machine it makes it even easier. The champions, elites and bosses all have that aura around them. They stick out like a sore thumb in the darkness. You can target them on the corners of your screen. You can often get off numerous throws without being spotted and when you are just run back a little ways and re-cast stealth. You can also use objects around the dungeon to break LOS.

[Max_Powers]

Originally Posted by Bluddy

Yes you're right. Truthfully, I should be shutting up in this thread. I can talk about NPC balance, interactivity and such, but I really have no right to talk about skill balance since I just haven't logged in enough hours (though, in my defense, I have tried). So that's it for my attempt at contributing to this thread.

Now, now, that's not quite what I meant. Look at it from my perspective. Someone comes in and says they are playing a rogue for the first time, and on the first town. They have never taken a character out of the 20's....and then they use the 'N' word. *Gasp* I would bet there are forums elsewhere in the internets that if you had said that like that there would be people knocking on your door with torches and pitchforks

Ps,

OMG this forum only lets you use like 4 smilies!!!!!!!!!111 Poor discriminated smilies. (I would put a frowny face here but....)

[Jorlen]

Archer:

- The skill that increases attack speed for a few seconds should instead be a passive permanent skill, maybe even lower its strength if need. Bows feel slow, this would be a good skill investment to offset this.

- I feel as though the multi-arrow skill's spread is far too wide; it would be great to have the spread width reduced

- is it me or are good bows fairly hard to come by?

[Crisses]

Originally Posted by Jorlen

- is it me or are good bows fairly hard to come by?

My trickster/hunter is my highest lvl character at about 41 right now. I think I've had the bow I have now for about 20 levels. Oh, yeah, and I didn't find it -- someone gave it to me who stumbled on it in a multiplayer game. So yes. I would agree. The bow before that I found and had for perhaps 5-8 levels minimum.

I tend to do a lot of hand-me-downs in this game. It's really tough stumbling on certain things. Like bags. Lots of bag hand-me-downs here. I found a bag vendor! Once. In the first dungeon for my first demonwar character today. all pouches because my character was like level 5 at most.

[Crisses]

Originally Posted by Max_Powers

Yes, I use this tactic often. It was what I meant by "stealth tactics". If there is a darkness machine it makes it even easier. The champions, elites and bosses all have that aura around them. They stick out like a sore thumb in the darkness. You can target them on the corners of your screen. You can often get off numerous throws without being spotted and when you are just run back a little ways and re-cast stealth. You can also use objects around the dungeon to break LOS.

I have the hunter tree and barbed arrows. Do you think shuriken is better? Or are they about the same?