[Balance] Is this how it's supposed to be?

[Tuidjy]

DyingCrow, the Scavengers may be a bit more powerful than other standard races, but in my experience they do better because they are expanding more recklessly, and getting into fewer wars. They are absolutely no match for T/O/L at higher levels. You have not seen a scary Empire until you allow T/O/L to become a starting race in a level 50+ sector.

Velox, keep improving your ships, and you will come to the point where you will be able to keep your friends healthy even at high levels... as long as you have no more than two friends, they are sharing the same systems, and the sector is no bigger than small.

Three allies, different corners of the sector, or more systems, and it becomes extremely hard unless you have maintained the galaxy free of T/O/L and Ancients, have consistently brokered alliances between those who play well with others (Dryads, Drakk, Lithosoids, Scavengers, Asexuals, etc..) and have always suppressed those that do not (Shadow, Brunt, Pirates, Xenophobia, etc...)

But right now, I am playing in my 'wild' galaxy - one that I used to unlock all the subraces, and one in which every strain of T/O/L and Ancient is loose. I usually spend three-four hours after the sector is won to wipe out the T/O/L and Ancients, and I do not always succeed in keeping even one standard (sub)race alive with my hardcore Command Zero ship. It's still fun, if you like to feel like a bit player, but I absolutely agree that Drox would be a better game with some balance changes.

[Bluddy]

Shadow, I believe I've found a bug in the relations file. BaseMonsterFaction isn't set to hate any one of RaceTalon, RaceLegion or RaceOverlord. This is why they're never attacked by monsters, and why they have such a huge advantage in the later levels where monsters are much stronger.

[alstein]

Originally Posted by Shadow

Drox will definitely still get patches here and there.

You're still updating DoP and Din's on occasion.

That said, the problem listed in the OP, it is a problem that has been consistent throughout all of your games- the difficulty level stays low, then it spikes super-hard at times in ways I consider unfair, which does make it less fun.

It probably should become harder over time, but it should be more gradual (maybe level cap would have to be increased though to compensate)

[ShaggyMoose]

Originally Posted by Bluddy

Shadow, I believe I've found a bug in the relations file. BaseMonsterFaction isn't set to hate any one of RaceTalon, RaceLegion or RaceOverlord. This is why they're never attacked by monsters, and why they have such a huge advantage in the later levels where monsters are much stronger.

Has this actually been confirmed as a bug? It seems a bit off that monsters fight all the time, yet Talon never gets attacked by any of them. It also makes them a very difficult race to support, as you can't use them as a "base" to pull monster agro. They just ignore everything while you get kicked around like a tin can...

I will second the feeling that the game starts to feel a bit hopeless from level 30+. Most sectors are a long grind for me and it seems like all the races end up in a hopeless death spiral where the problems just multiply without any hope in sight. Usually I am severely underpowered at the start of a "normal" or "hard" sector and it takes me a while to break out and starting helping people. By then, its often too late.

[Tuidjy]

The change log for the last Beta patch listed this as fixed, and from what I can tell it has been.

I have seen that in 1.042, there are non-aligned monsters that you can kill to get on Legion's good side. I assume that it works the same way for Talon and Overlord.

[ShaggyMoose]

Ahh, Steam version is still 1.041. I look forward to the update!

On a related subject, does killing Talon and Legion count against Legendary wins?

[Tuidjy]

Killing T/O/L and Ancients counts towards both Fear and Legend wins. Killing standard races and their non-T/O/L subraces counts towards Fear wins, but against Legend wins.

Well, that's how it was before 1.042. I'm afraid I have not been paying attention to this in 1.042, but soon I'll know.

[ShaggyMoose]

Originally Posted by Tuidjy

Killing T/O/L and Ancients counts towards both Fear and Legend wins. Killing standard races and their non-T/O/L subraces counts towards Fear wins, but against Legend wins.

Does this apply without IotA installed? I just destroyed Legion and my Legend "win counter' dropped 7 points...

[Tuidjy]

Yeah, I forgot about that. The ship kills and colony destructions follows the rules above. Being the one who is credited with destroying a race always counts against Legend, no matter which race. And to make things even more annoying, it is not easy to insure you are the one credited - I cannot make it happen reliably.

Of course, I mostly look at things from the other direction - I usually try to delay the win, not to hasten it, which is why I hate having to go to overt war with T/O/L and Ancients that are native to the sector. With multiple planets and dozens of ships, fighting them brings both wins much closer, much too fast. Bad for business.

I hope the 1.042 change makes the standard races more likely to wipe T/O/L without mt help.

[username]

Originally Posted by Tuidjy

Yeah, I forgot about that. The ship kills and colony destructions follows the rules above. Being the one who is credited with destroying a race always counts against Legend, no matter which race. And to make things even more annoying, it is not easy to insure you are the one credited - I cannot make it happen reliably.

I can: It's caused by being the one to cause the most damage to that race. This is why if you blitz and kill a race early, the destruction will often be blamed on "Drox Operatives" (you), but by later in the game, everyone dies to "Monsters". It does not matter if they were a formerly sustainable empire where you personally went and destroyed all of their 10 remaining planets in a sudden blitz. Monsters get the blame for it.

Originally Posted by Tuidjy

I hope the 1.042 change makes the standard races more likely to wipe T/O/L without mt help.

It did not. But now T/O/L struggle like anyone else, being no longer impervious to monster attack. I have witnessed a rapid succession of T/O/L coming into being, being immediately destroyed by monsters which replace them with a new T/O/L, only to then immediately be destroyed again.

The monsters are simply insane, and I think I've sort of figured out why: As the difficulty level increases, Monsters receive an increasing large multiplier to all their stats, going all the way up to 5.6x Health, Armor, Defense, Damage, and Resistance. This results in an exponentially increasing amount of damage inflicted on planets by monsters as it requires exponentially longer to stop them: If, for instance, a monster is now dealing 5x as much damage as before when it hits, hits 5x as often due to massively increased attack values, takes 5x as much damage to kill, and due to increased resistances, gains another 5x as much effective HP on top of that, it is actually going to inflict 625x more damage, because it will deal 25x the damage over 25x longer.

When something is causing 625x damage, and the corresponding planetary health modifier at that level is a measly 7x, it's not hard to see why the races are simply being totally overwhelmed by the monsters, where even the most determined resistance from the player simply isn't enough to prevent the galaxy from ultimately being eaten by monsters one planet at a time.

On top of that, it looks like the monsters also move faster. The exact effect of faster movement cannot be directly quantified, but as we all know, movement is a powerful force multiplier, affecting both offense and defense simultaneously, often in far greater proportion than simple linear values would indicate: In some games, a merely 10% speed advantage over your opponent, all other factors equal, translates to the difference between evenly matched and being completely untouchable and able to crush an infinite number of slightly-slower enemies. Where Drox falls on the curve is hard to say.